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Old 08-16-2007, 02:06 PM   #16
EricForman
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtop Hero
Seriously. This has to be the stupidest argument of all time, and 99% of the time it's Kobe Bryant fans that use it. WHY? They try to make it seem like all Duncan has had has been Hall of Fame stocked teams his whole career and that's the ONLY reason he wins and is a great player. Meanwhile, why don't they talk about the talent Kobe had on the 3peat Laker teams? Has Duncan EVER had a player like a prime Shaq on his team?

The David Robinson thing is a FALLACY created by mental midgets. By the time Duncan got there, Robinson was PAST his prime. Not only was he hindered by injuries, but he was also much older. He put up 8ppg and 7rb during the second title!!! How the hell can anyone pretend those were HOF numbers???

Also, something they never address is if we should start taking away from Larry Bird, Magic, Russell and anyone else who played on stacked teams. They never answer this point.

Why is it different for Bird, Magic and Russell than it is for Duncan? The intellectual inferiority of the argument is what irritates me the most because it's not born of actually debating something. It's born of trying to take away from a player to boost another using flawed logic. It's just garbage debating.


I dunno why you get so worked up and start a new thread over this. All you have to do is list Kobe's teammates from 1998 to 2004. Ask them if they think Manu Ginobili+Tony Parker+Brent Barry+Mike Finley+Robert Horry is better than Shaq+Eddie Jones+Nick Van Exel+Elden Campbell+Robert Horry.... or ask them if aging David Robinson+rookie Tony Parker+young Manu in 2003 is a better cast than prime Shaq+Glen Rice+Fisher+Fox+Horry+Ron Harper

They will ignore it EVERYTIME. Once they ignore it, you win.

That's all you need to do. There is no reason to get worked up over something this silly. There is no way, no how they can spin it to make it look like Duncan has more talent/help around him ever than Kobe did from 1998 to 2004, especially between 2000 to 2004.
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Old 08-16-2007, 02:13 PM   #17
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

...

Wow.

Here is the point.



























Here is your head.

Most Kobe fans know that the years the Lakers won they had a good roster. From the time they traded to Shaq to now, the Lakers have been sorry.

I'm tired of this. There must be a discount on the Selective Reading glasses or something...

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricForman
I dunno why you get so worked up and start a new thread over this. All you have to do is list Kobe's teammates from 1998 to 2004. Ask them if they think Manu Ginobili+Tony Parker+Brent Barry+Mike Finley+Robert Horry is better than Shaq+Eddie Jones+Nick Van Exel+Elden Campbell+Robert Horry.... or ask them if aging David Robinson+rookie Tony Parker+young Manu in 2003 is a better cast than prime Shaq+Glen Rice+Fisher+Fox+Horry+Ron Harper

They will ignore it EVERYTIME. Once they ignore it, you win.

That's all you need to do. There is no reason to get worked up over something this silly. There is no way, no how they can spin it to make it look like Duncan has more talent/help around him ever than Kobe did from 1998 to 2004, especially between 2000 to 2004.
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Old 08-16-2007, 02:19 PM   #18
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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Originally Posted by Optimus Prime
...
Most Kobe fans know that the years the Lakers won they had a good roster. From the time they traded to Shaq to now, the Lakers have been sorry.

I'm tired of this. There must be a discount on the Selective Reading glasses or something...


Actually, most don't. Just because you do, you're giving the rest of the clowns too much credit. I wouldn't be surprised to hear them argue DRob is near Shaq's equal and Manu is "far better than Glen Rice ever was", and they'd probably argue 2007 Horry is better than 2002 Horry because "he has more experience and knowledge."

If you Kobe fans points is only on Lakers post-Shaq... then what's there to argue about? That if Kobe had Duncan's cast he woulda won rings in 05, 06 and 07 as well?

I read selectively because you Kobe fans are clowns. You can't just assumepeople will give you guys credibility when you guys start stupid threads and make stupid points. Quite honestly, when I read a post by someone with a Kobe avartar or Kobe in the username, I already am biased and assume it's a dumbass post.

It's my rule on ISH "if a poster has a Kobe avartar or username, 88% chance they're a clown"


And for your act about people not being able to understand concepts. You seem to fail to realize that Duncan's 03 and 99 cast was far from "great" and Duncan's teams never as much "talent/big names" as the Lakers, Kings, or Mavs did during the same stretch of time. Duncan's cast is good but you guys overrate it. Parker has only become a legit good post season player THIS YEAR, and the rest of the role players are just good solid guys that know their role. Duncan is the GOAT PF and Manu is one of the more clutch winners of our time. But you'd be wrong if you think Duncan's cast ever had the talent or names of the rest of the West's powerhouses. 2004 was supposed to be a rebuilding year--DRob retired, Stephen Jackson left the team, and the Spurs still won like 55 games and were a favorite to win, why's that? Because they overachieve. Them overachieving gives you clowns the impression that they are a stacked team.

Last edited by EricForman : 08-16-2007 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:05 PM   #19
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRZ66
maybe because the spurs are stacked with great players and a great coach, while the lakers have 1 good player? sounds like a legit argurment to me. a good way to discredit duncan is to look how he played in the olympics...

stacked with GREAT players? For real? Go look at TD's supporting casts over the last 10. There is not a legit Hall of Famer among them (aside from aging Robinson for 2). The 50ish different players that Duncan led to titles (besides D.rob) combined for 10 all-Star appearances. Those appearances are Porter, Elliot, Finley, Manu and Parker. Then you've got Bowen, Jackson, Rose, Ferry, Elie -- we still talking about being "stacked" with "great players" - Rasho, Nazr, Avery, Oberto

--and these were starters at some point. STARTERS. We're still saying "stacked" and GREAT?

Who are these "great" players?

Tony Parker? If you were to rank all pg's in the league, where would he be:

Nash
Kidd
Deron
Paul
Billups
Baron Davis
Rght around here with Andre Miller and Hinrich- does that sound about right? so, as the 2nd best player on the team is barely top 10 at his own position

..and what is Manu, one of the best 6th men in the league, but not good enough to win the crown.

Don't the Lakers have a great coach?

----and this Olympic busienss is more complete bullsh-t. The int'l rules, the lane, the allowance of pounding on big men does not support a guy like Duncan having a big tournament. He si not allowed ot his spots on the floor - not by defense, but by the rules - he is allowed to get murdered on the way to the basket.

---and want ot talk about coddled -- look at Duncan's ft totals and Kobe's. Edit Kobe shot 200 MORE ft's in 3 less games...and he plays outside.

Aggravting

Last edited by John Starks : 08-16-2007 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:32 PM   #20
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtop Hero
Seriously. This has to be the stupidest argument of all time, and 99% of the time it's Kobe Bryant fans that use it. WHY? They try to make it seem like all Duncan has had has been Hall of Fame stocked teams his whole career and that's the ONLY reason he wins and is a great player. Meanwhile, why don't they talk about the talent Kobe had on the 3peat Laker teams? Has Duncan EVER had a player like a prime Shaq on his team?

The David Robinson thing is a FALLACY created by mental midgets. By the time Duncan got there, Robinson was PAST his prime. Not only was he hindered by injuries, but he was also much older. He put up 8ppg and 7rb during the second title!!! How the hell can anyone pretend those were HOF numbers???

Also, something they never address is if we should start taking away from Larry Bird, Magic, Russell and anyone else who played on stacked teams. They never answer this point.

Why is it different for Bird, Magic and Russell than it is for Duncan? The intellectual inferiority of the argument is what irritates me the most because it's not born of actually debating something. It's born of trying to take away from a player to boost another using flawed logic. It's just garbage debating.


I can't deny Kobe had a good team around him when he won 3 rings, I won't try it either. The only time I'll bring up the fact that Duncan has a better team currently than Kobe is if you bring up that Duncan has more rings than Kobe. Or if you say that Duncan's team success has nothing to do with his individual greatness, where on the other hand, Kobe's team failures somehow evaluate his individual greatness.
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:36 PM   #21
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Because Kobe fans are jealousy.
they know without Duncan, Kobe will be the best player in the world.
but in reality, Duncan is still the best player. and Kobe is the second.

Last edited by BA_God : 08-16-2007 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:40 PM   #22
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

What is this "jeolosy"? And where is "realy"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BA_God
Because Kobe fans are jeolosy.
they know without Duncan, Kobe will be the best player in the world.
but in realy, Duncan is still the best player. and Kobe is the second.
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:43 PM   #23
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus Prime
What is this "jeolosy"? And where is "realy"?
sorry, it's typo
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:44 PM   #24
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BA_God
Because Kobe fans are jealousy.
they know without Duncan, Kobe will be the best player in the world.
but in reality, Duncan is still the best player. and Kobe is the second.


When guys like Jordan, Bird, Drexler, Barkley, Billups, Dirk, James, Arenas call you the best, there's nothing to be "jealousy" about.
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:51 PM   #25
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtop Hero
Seriously. This has to be the stupidest argument of all time, and 99% of the time it's Kobe Bryant fans that use it. WHY? They try to make it seem like all Duncan has had has been Hall of Fame stocked teams his whole career and that's the ONLY reason he wins and is a great player. Meanwhile, why don't they talk about the talent Kobe had on the 3peat Laker teams? Has Duncan EVER had a player like a prime Shaq on his team?

The David Robinson thing is a FALLACY created by mental midgets. By the time Duncan got there, Robinson was PAST his prime. Not only was he hindered by injuries, but he was also much older. He put up 8ppg and 7rb during the second title!!! How the hell can anyone pretend those were HOF numbers???

Also, something they never address is if we should start taking away from Larry Bird, Magic, Russell and anyone else who played on stacked teams. They never answer this point.

Why is it different for Bird, Magic and Russell than it is for Duncan? The intellectual inferiority of the argument is what irritates me the most because it's not born of actually debating something. It's born of trying to take away from a player to boost another using flawed logic. It's just garbage debating.

you drone on here, but I will attempt to answer your question...

when folks debate the Duncan vs. Kobe thing, some folks (largely Kobe h@ters) say..."Duncan is better because he has more rings as THE MAN, and rings are what is most important". Well, there is certain validity to that, no doubt. However, you only win rings if you have a great team around you. In the post-Shaq era, Kobe has not had a great team to work with (anyone who says otherwise is just an idiot).

THAT is why Kobe fans address the "Duncan's Team" issue.

ps. I personally believe TD is closer to the top of all-time greatness than Kobe, based on TD's collective body of work.
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:53 PM   #26
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Tim Duncan is inarguably top-ten all time. I think top-5, but whether you agree with this or no, these are the facts: Duncan's resume is great and surpassing, and there a only a handful of players who have achieved more, with maybe only 1 player or so, Russell, having accomplished more by age 32 (4 titles, 3 finals mvps for Duncan). Whether one thinks Duncan is boring, un-athletic, etc is subjective. His accomplishments, however, are objective.

Kobe is a great player, but the facts again are the facts: he was the second option on 3 title teams to Shaq. If Kobe is ever to be mentioned with the likes of Duncan, or ahead of him, he will have to win multiple titles, at least 3, as the main guy (and that is if Duncan doesn't win another).

What is so astonishing about Duncan, is he has accomplished so much more (4 titles, contention every year), with so much less as far as talented teammates. As long as were playing the "what if" game, let's try this one: if Duncan had Wade or Kobe as his second options since 98 (as Shaq did), how many titles would he have? Duncan would be in the running to catch Russel's 11 titles, especially when he has 4 already! He was only a Fisher miracle and a ignorant Ginobli foul away from having 6 titles possibly!

My point? What If Ave. runs both ways. Maybe other players, ie Kobe, could have success with Duncan's teams, but Duncan could have DOMINATED, to the tune of Russel's 11 titles possibly, with Shaq, Magic, Bird, or Jordan's cast.

But that is thing about great players (and people, mind you). They don't complain about what they lack, they transform what they lack into surplus. Or else, why would everyone be debating how Duncan's teams are "stacked"?
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:54 PM   #27
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Still waiting for someone to answer why we shouldn't discredit Bird, Magic, Russell for their accomplishments given their teams.

Two pages in, and not ONE Bryant fan has addressed this.

Tells me all I need to know. Namely, that the "But but Duncan's team" argument is garbage.
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Old 08-16-2007, 04:02 PM   #28
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtop Hero
Still waiting for someone to answer why we shouldn't discredit Bird, Magic, Russell for their accomplishments given their teams.

Two pages in, and not ONE Bryant fan has addressed this.

Tells me all I need to know. Namely, that the "But but Duncan's team" argument is garbage.

I don't think anyone is saying we SHOULD discredit Bird, Magic, Russell nor TD.
I believe you must be missing people's point....that all these players, including TD and Shaq and MJ won with great teammates around them. In the post-Shaq era, Kobe has not had that opportunity. that's all there is to it.
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Old 08-16-2007, 04:06 PM   #29
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedinpurpleTwo
I don't think anyone is saying we SHOULD discredit Bird, Magic, Russell nor TD.
I believe you must be missing people's point....that all these players, including TD and Shaq and MJ won with great teammates around them. In the post-Shaq era, Kobe has not had that opportunity. that's all there is to it.

Finally!

I agree, Kobe has not had the the best cast to prove himself. But that doesn't mean he can win titles with Duncan's cast, nor that he should be considered as great as these players (TD, Shaq, MJ) based on what he "could do." Until he does it (as the main man), he cannot be credited for it.
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Old 08-16-2007, 04:09 PM   #30
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

I, as well as others, have answered your question multiple times. You just need to go back to Remedial English 101...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtop Hero
Still waiting for someone to answer why we shouldn't discredit Bird, Magic, Russell for their accomplishments given their teams.

Two pages in, and not ONE Bryant fan has addressed this.

Tells me all I need to know. Namely, that the "But but Duncan's team" argument is garbage.
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