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Old 08-16-2007, 03:13 PM   #31
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedinpurpleTwo
I don't think anyone is saying we SHOULD discredit Bird, Magic, Russell nor TD.
I believe you must be missing people's point....that all these players, including TD and Shaq and MJ won with great teammates around them. In the post-Shaq era, Kobe has not had that opportunity. that's all there is to it.

And guess what? Neither has KG, Pierce, AI (before Denver) and a host of other very good/great players throughout the years. Yet, we're supposed to assume that if Kobe had a better team, he would automatically win, when no one knows that. It's one thing to say "I think if Kobe had a much better team, he would win more". It's another to say "If he had a better team he WOULD win for SURE, and win titles, and the only reason he doesn't win like Duncan is because Duncan has had these great teams, and that's the only reason Duncan is great" which is what most Kobe fans who use the "Duncan's team" argument imply.

Further, why don't these same people say "Put Kobe on larry Bird or magic or Russell's teams and he would win and be looked at as better than them"

Why do they afford Bird, Magic and Russell respect despite their teams but don't do so for Duncan? Isn't it the same thing?
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:14 PM   #32
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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Originally Posted by Optimus Prime
I, as well as others, have answered your question multiple times. You just need to go back to Remedial English 101...

No, you haven't. You've just avoided it or talked around it. Like I expected you to.
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:14 PM   #33
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

I find it hilarious that the OP keeps whining about his question not being answered, simply because the answer is so obvious to everyone else that they don't even bother to mention it. The reason the argument is used in relation to Duncan is that Duncan is who is being compared to Kobe. Do you see "Bird vs. Kobe" arguments popping up everywhere? Nope.

I'm not even on really on Kobe's side of this argument and I see that. Some people.
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:17 PM   #34
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BULLS





Players better than Duncan:

Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Karl Malone
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwon


Duncan is borderline top 10, and serious cases can be made as to why he isn't.





Facts again are facts:

- Duncan had Stern hand him a ring with the Amare suspension
- Duncan plays with two all-stars
- Duncan earned one a ring during a lockout season








Kobe is being mentioned with the likes of Michael f'ing Jordan, not Tim Duncan.


Kobe > Duncan

Hatred is useless for your life
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:17 PM   #35
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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Originally Posted by GoldNugg21
I find it hilarious that the OP keeps whining about his question not being answered, simply because the answer is so obvious to everyone else that they don't even bother to mention it. The reason the argument is used in relation to Duncan is that Duncan is who is being compared to Kobe. Do you see "Bird vs. Kobe" arguments popping up everywhere? Nope.

I'm not even on really on Kobe's side of this argument and I see that. Some people.

That's not the point. Unless people are stupid, most accept it as fact that Bird, Magic and Russell are greater players than Kobe, despite their teams.

Yet Kobe fans try to make it like the only reason Duncan is great is because of his teams. So wouldn't it make sense to say that Bird, Magic and Russell really aren't that great because they played with Hall of Famers for so many years?

Also, why is it OVERWHELMINGLY Kobe fans that use this argument? Why don't OTHER fans imply that Duncan is great because of his teams? I mean, if it's so obvious and all.......
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:27 PM   #36
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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Originally Posted by Hardtop Hero
That's not the point. Unless people are stupid, most accept it as fact that Bird, Magic and Russell are greater players than Kobe, despite their teams.

Yet Kobe fans try to make it like the only reason Duncan is great is because of his teams. So wouldn't it make sense to say that Bird, Magic and Russell really aren't that great because they played with Hall of Famers for so many years?

Also, why is it OVERWHELMINGLY Kobe fans that use this argument? Why don't OTHER fans imply that Duncan is great because of his teams? I mean, if it's so obvious and all.......
Get this: unless people are stupid, most accept it as fact that Bird, Magic, and Russel are greater players than Duncan, despite their teams. So maybe the fact that those players are on a different level than Kobe and Duncan right now has something to do with it? Again, that's something everyone sees, but most people think is too obvious to mention.

And the reason you see Kobe fans make that argument more than anyone else is because Kobe is who is being compared to Duncan right now. When it was KG being compared to Duncan, that exact same argument was used OVERWHLMINGLY by KG fans. Shocking.
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:30 PM   #37
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldNugg21
Get this: unless people are stupid, most accept it as fact that Bird, Magic, and Russel are greater players than Duncan, despite their teams. So maybe the fact that those players are on a different level than Kobe and Duncan right now has something to do with it? Again, that's something everyone sees, but most people think is too obvious to mention.

And the reason you see Kobe fans make that argument more than anyone else is because Kobe is who is being compared to Duncan right now. When it was KG being compared to Duncan, that exact same argument was used OVERWHLMINGLY by KG fans. Shocking.

So why accept the fact that Bird, Magic and Russell are greater players than Duncan when they had HOF teams?

It's the same damn argument as saying that Duncan has had better teams than Kobe the past few years.

Magic had better teams than Mark Price. Bird had better teams than Dominique.

So one could say that the only reason they're looked at as so great is their TEAMS, just like these braindead Bryant fans are trying to say that that's the reason Duncan has accomplished what he has.

Oh, and any KG fan using that argument is just as dimwitted.
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:43 PM   #38
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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Originally Posted by Hardtop Hero
So why accept the fact that Bird, Magic and Russell are greater players than Duncan when they had HOF teams?

It's the same damn argument as saying that Duncan has had better teams than Kobe the past few years.

Magic had better teams than Mark Price. Bird had better teams than Dominique.

So one could say that the only reason they're looked at as so great is their TEAMS, just like these braindead Bryant fans are trying to say that that's the reason Duncan has accomplished what he has.

Oh, and any KG fan using that argument is just as dimwitted.
And you completely throwing out the argument in all cases is just dimwitted. It's well documented that the team around great players has a large impact on how they will be viewed at the end of their careers. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that Price wasn't nearly the player that Magic was, but when closer comparisons are made, team makeup, and team success, are two of the many things that must be weighed. Ignoring one completely is just as bad as basing your entire argument solely on one.

What it comes down to is that this is just a bad attempt by you to bash any and all Kobe supporters because some of them rely too heavily upon one particular argument that supports their side of the Duncan/Bryant debate. Meanwhile, Duncan fans will always use the "Kobe can't win as the main superstar" argument against Kobe. Does that make that argument any less valid? No, it just makes it overused.

Summary: your thread is pointless.
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:47 PM   #39
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

You say that Duncan didn't have a player close to Prime Shaq, but what about Duncan himself?
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Old 08-16-2007, 04:00 PM   #40
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldNugg21
And you completely throwing out the argument in all cases is just dimwitted. It's well documented that the team around great players has a large impact on how they will be viewed at the end of their careers. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that Price wasn't nearly the player that Magic was, but when closer comparisons are made, team makeup, and team success, are two of the many things that must be weighed. Ignoring one completely is just as bad as basing your entire argument solely on one.

I never said that wasn't the case, however all certain Bryant fans do is regurgitate the same argument about Duncan's team over and over as if that's the ONLY thing that makes him great. Why are you trying to be obstinate and pretend that that isn't the case? My point is that you could do the same damn thing for Bird, Rusell and Magic when comparing them to other players that put up similar stats but didn't win as much. Why is it OK for Duncan, but not them? I haven't seen that answered sufficiently YET.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldNugg21
What it comes down to is that this is just a bad attempt by you to bash any and all Kobe supporters because some of them rely too heavily upon one particular argument that supports their side of the Duncan/Bryant debate. Meanwhile, Duncan fans will always use the "Kobe can't win as the main superstar" argument against Kobe. Does that make that argument any less valid? No, it just makes it overused.

Summary: your thread is pointless.

Did I bash "any and all" or did I point out that overwhelmingly Kobe fans us that argument as a reason to say that that's why Duncan has been so successful? The overwhelming majority of people that I've seen make that argument have been Kobe fans. There are a few KG fans that will try it, but NOWHERE NEAR the same level as Bryant fans. Further, Duncan is the only one I constantly see being bashed for his team WHEN BIRD, MAGIC AND RUSSELL PLAYED ON TEAMS WITH HALL OF FAMERS.

Summary: your replies are pointless.
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Old 08-16-2007, 04:05 PM   #41
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtop Hero
I never said that wasn't the case, however all certain Bryant fans do is regurgitate the same argument about Duncan's team over and over as if that's the ONLY thing that makes him great. Why are you trying to be obstinate and pretend that that isn't the case? My point is that you could do the same damn thing for Bird, Rusell and Magic when comparing them to other players that put up similar stats but didn't win as much. Why is it OK for Duncan, but not them? I haven't seen that answered sufficiently YET.



Did I bash "any and all" or did I point out that overwhelmingly Kobe fans us that argument as a reason to say that that's why Duncan has been so successful? The overwhelming majority of people that I've seen make that argument have been Kobe fans. There are a few KG fans that will try it, but NOWHERE NEAR the same level as Bryant fans. Further, Duncan is the only one I constantly see being bashed for his team WHEN BIRD, MAGIC AND RUSSELL PLAYED ON TEAMS WITH HALL OF FAMERS.

Summary: your replies are pointless.

So basically, you're complaining about one argument that certain Kobe fans (ie: the ones NO ONE takes seriously) use to make claims that no one agrees with about Duncan. By doing so, you're saying that the said criteria are useless, which simply isn't true.

And again, the reason all you see is Kobe fans using the argument is because thats the only ongoing argument that it can be used in right now. The reason you dont see it being used against Bird Magic and Russell is because they aren't the ones being debated in every other thread. It's simple, really, and nothing to get your panties in a bunch over, let alone make a thread about.
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Old 08-16-2007, 04:05 PM   #42
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Am I the only person in the world who loves both Duncan and Kobe. It seems like you either love Kobe hate Duncan. (the rarer)Love Duncan hate Kobe. And a sadly all too common person hates them both for being the 2 best players in the league(that's the best reason i can think of to hate them). Seriously it seems like most people I talk to try to convince that either AI Yao or TMac are the best players in the league can't we just give them 1a and 1b and get this argument over with.
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Old 08-16-2007, 04:09 PM   #43
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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Am I the only person in the world who loves both Duncan and Kobe. It seems like you either love Kobe hate Duncan. (the rarer)Love Duncan hate Kobe. And a sadly all too common person hates them both for being the 2 best players in the league(that's the best reason i can think of to hate them). Seriously it seems like most people I talk to try to convince that either AI Yao or TMac are the best players in the league can't we just give them 1a and 1b and get this argument over with.

I really don't hate Kobe, so much as I hate some of the arguments people come up with to defend him. IMO, they often fly in the face of logic and reason and boil down to "He's my favorite player so I'll say whatever to push him as the best regardless of how much sense it makes"

I have a problem with that, and I think the "Duncan's teammates" argument is a prime example of it.
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Old 08-16-2007, 04:11 PM   #44
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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Originally Posted by ereed6
Am I the only person in the world who loves both Duncan and Kobe. It seems like you either love Kobe hate Duncan. (the rarer)Love Duncan hate Kobe. And a sadly all too common person hates them both for being the 2 best players in the league(that's the best reason i can think of to hate them). Seriously it seems like most people I talk to try to convince that either AI Yao or TMac are the best players in the league can't we just give them 1a and 1b and get this argument over with.

I like both of them.
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Old 08-16-2007, 04:12 PM   #45
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldNugg21
So basically, you're complaining about one argument that certain Kobe fans (ie: the ones NO ONE takes seriously) use to make claims that no one agrees with about Duncan. By doing so, you're saying that the said criteria are useless, which simply isn't true.

And again, the reason all you see is Kobe fans using the argument is because thats the only ongoing argument that it can be used in right now. The reason you dont see it being used against Bird Magic and Russell is because they aren't the ones being debated in every other thread. It's simple, really, and nothing to get your panties in a bunch over, let alone make a thread about.

Actually, if it was just one or two Bryant fans I wouldn't have said anything about it but it seems like I see it over and over again so I decided to address it. Can't really see why you'd have a problem with that. I think it's an intellectually dishonest argument and I wanted to point it out and see who agreed/disagreed with that.

As for Magic, Bird and Russell you know damn well the average Bryant fan who uses the "Duncan's teammates" argument isn't going to attempt to do the same thing with them, whether it's being discussed or not. Don't be puposefully dense.
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