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Old 08-16-2007, 05:23 PM   #46
GoldNugg21
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtop Hero
Actually, if it was just one or two Bryant fans I wouldn't have said anything about it but it seems like I see it over and over again so I decided to address it. Can't really see why you'd have a problem with that. I think it's an intellectually dishonest argument and I wanted to point it out and see who agreed/disagreed with that.

As for Magic, Bird and Russell you know damn well the average Bryant fan who uses the "Duncan's teammates" argument isn't going to attempt to do the same thing with them, whether it's being discussed or not. Don't be puposefully dense.
See, the thing is, if you let the "Kobe *******", which makes up a huge percentage of our posters here, get to you, you'll end up making worthless threads like this. The thing is, the argument you're trying to combat is an argument that will pop up any time a player on a bad team is being compared to a player on a good team. It's not solely a product of the Kobe fans like you seem to think, and it is an argument that has good merit. Now I'm not about to say that Kobe fans don't overuse and misuse it, but at the same time it's no different from how Duncan fans will point to Duncan's success over and over again in the same thread. Just like any reasonable argument, it can and will be used in a way that makes it seem stupid by overzealous fans. But if a thread was made every time someone misused a point, that is all we would talk about on here. Sounds like a bad time.

And again, those players are considered to be on a higher level than both Duncan and Kobe, so it is obvious that they won't see the same argument thrown against them when discussing Kobe. But when you compare Russell to Chamberlain, you can be damn sure that the supporting cast argument will pop up very quick. Probably right after the championship point comes up. Oddly enough, that's exactly the same pattern you see in Kobe/Duncan threads.
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:25 PM   #47
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Why does Kobe get discredited for those three titles he won?
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:28 PM   #48
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

damn sizzle, it's been awhile since i seen you post here.

anyways, on the topic, he doesn't get discredited but rather slightly devalued because he played alongside the most dominant big man of todays era in his prime.

note: i haven't read any of the argument, just sizzle's sentence.
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:29 PM   #49
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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Originally Posted by hotsizzle
Why does Kobe get discredited for those three titles he won?

See, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. To someone like this:

Discrediting = saying Kobe was in the Pip, McHale, Worthy, etc. role, NOT the Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, Magic, Jordan role.

I don't think you'll find too many Pippen, McHale, Worthy, etc. fans who will think you're "discrediting" them to point out that they weren't the MVPs of their teams yet many Bryant fans find it to be "discrediting" him to point out that he wasn't the main man on his title teams.

WHY?
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:36 PM   #50
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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Originally Posted by Hardtop Hero
See, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. To someone like this:

Discrediting = saying Kobe was in the Pip, McHale, Worthy, etc. role, NOT the Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, Magic, Jordan role.

I don't think you'll find too many Pippen, McHale, Worthy, etc. fans who will think you're "discrediting" them to point out that they weren't the MVPs of their teams yet many Bryant fans find it to be "discrediting" him to point out that he wasn't the main man on his title teams.

WHY?

Actually thats not it. The "discrediting" goes to the point where those three titles arent even considered part of his resume...even though he was a huge part of those championships.

And Kobe > Mchale, Worthy, Pip

Last edited by hotsizzle : 08-16-2007 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:37 PM   #51
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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damn sizzle, it's been awhile since i seen you post here.


Yea been a little busy this summer.
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:38 PM   #52
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtop Hero
See, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. To someone like this:

Discrediting = saying Kobe was in the Pip, McHale, Worthy, etc. role, NOT the Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, Magic, Jordan role.

I don't think you'll find too many Pippen, McHale, Worthy, etc. fans who will think you're "discrediting" them to point out that they weren't the MVPs of their teams yet many Bryant fans find it to be "discrediting" him to point out that he wasn't the main man on his title teams.

WHY?

Because Kobe is arguably the most important second option to a championship team ever. Sure, Shaq was the best player, but Kobe filled the role of Jordan when the game was on the line. No other second fiddle has ever done that, so to say that Kobe is equal to McHale and Worthy in terms of importance to those teams is a major slight.
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:45 PM   #53
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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Originally Posted by GoldNugg21
See, the thing is, if you let the "Kobe *******", which makes up a huge percentage of our posters here, get to you, you'll end up making worthless threads like this.

One could ask why someone would spend so much time in a "worthless" thread, but I won't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldNugg21
The thing is, the argument you're trying to combat is an argument that will pop up any time a player on a bad team is being compared to a player on a good team. It's not solely a product of the Kobe fans like you seem to think, and it is an argument that has good merit.

I haven't, nor would I ever pretend that a players team is irrelevant. Of course it is. HOWEVER, there have been many star players on very good teams that couldn't get over the hump so I think it's disingenous to pretend that FOUR RINGS won as the franchise player on the team is somehow mainly because he had this great team and has little to do with how great Duncan is. That's garbage. You know all the great players in NBA history who had very good teams but didn't win?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldNugg21
Now I'm not about to say that Kobe fans don't overuse and misuse it, but at the same time it's no different from how Duncan fans will point to Duncan's success over and over again in the same thread.

See above. Having a very good team might be necessary for titles but it doesn't GUARANTEE a great player will get them. Their argument basically is saying put any all star on a team with Manu and Parker and PRESTO! Titles!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldNugg21
Just like any reasonable argument, it can and will be used in a way that makes it seem stupid by overzealous fans. But if a thread was made every time someone misused a point, that is all we would talk about on here. Sounds like a bad time.

It doesn't SEEM stupid. It IS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldNugg21
And again, those players are considered to be on a higher level than both Duncan and Kobe, so it is obvious that they won't see the same argument thrown against them when discussing Kobe. But when you compare Russell to Chamberlain, you can be damn sure that the supporting cast argument will pop up very quick. Probably right after the championship point comes up. Oddly enough, that's exactly the same pattern you see in Kobe/Duncan threads.

That may be the case, but no one is trying to lower Bird, Magic or Russell's place as all time great players because of the teams they played on, though by using the "Duncan's teammates" theory, one could certainly make the argument.

Last edited by Hardtop Hero : 08-16-2007 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:50 PM   #54
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldNugg21
Because Kobe is arguably the most important second option to a championship team ever. Sure, Shaq was the best player, but Kobe filled the role of Jordan when the game was on the line. No other second fiddle has ever done that, so to say that Kobe is equal to McHale and Worthy in terms of importance to those teams is a major slight.

He was still second fiddle, and no amount of twisting and turning and all of that will change that.

As for "filling the role of Jordan" that's garbage because Jordan had to do the heavy lifting ALL GAME LONG and then be fresh enough to carry it home in the 4th. He didn't have a monster like Shaq averaging 30 and 12 on 60% shooting all while drawing defenders off of him all game.

He hasn't had a series like his best with Shaq on the team since Shaq left. Coincidence? I think not.
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:51 PM   #55
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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Originally Posted by hotsizzle
Actually thats not it. The "discrediting" goes to the point where those three titles arent even considered part of his resume...even though he was a huge part of those championships.

And Kobe > Mchale, Worthy, Pip

Its part of his resume - but when you say KOBE IS THE GREATEST PLAYER MOST WELL ROUNDED CLUTCH CHAMPION IN THE LEAGUE - and use those titles as an example, it must be taken into account that he was the Pippen on those teams not the MJ...and when it is argued that he is better than Duncan, it must be taken into account that Duncan is the MJ on all of his teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldNuggs
Because Kobe is arguably the most important second option to a championship team ever. Sure, Shaq was the best player, but Kobe filled the role of Jordan when the game was on the line. No other second fiddle has ever done that, so to say that Kobe is equal to McHale and Worthy in terms of importance to those teams is a major slight.

...and this is just annoying.

Who was 2nd fiddle, Magic or Kareem? Was Kobe more important than either one of them? Was Kobe really more important than Drexler on the Hou team? Watch the series. Drex was the fastest guy on the floor for the entire 4 games. That Hou team was going ot miss the playoffs before Drex came, and he lifted them to the 6th seed and drove them to that 2nd title.

Was he more important than Dumars, who actually won a finals MVP? Scottie and MJ won 6 titles together. They were the constants - and Pippen represented himself without mJ better than Kobe ever has without Shaq. Was he really more important?
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:56 PM   #56
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtop Hero
One could ask why someone would spend so much time in a "worthless" thread, but I won't.



I haven't, nor would I ever pretend that a players team is irrelevant. Of course it is. HOWEVER, there have been many star players on very good teams that couldn't get over the hump so I think it's disingenous to pretend that FOUR RINGS won as the franchise player on the team is somehow mainly because he had this great team and has little to do with how great Duncan is. That's garbage. You know all the great players in NBA history who had very good teams but didn't win?



See above. Having a very good team might be necessary for titles but it doesn't GUARANTEE a great player will get them. Their argument basically is saying put any all star on a team with Manu and Parker and PRESTO! Titles!!!!



It doesn't SEEM stupid. It IS.



That may be the case, but no one is trying to lower Bird, Magic or Russell's place as all time great players because of the teams they played on, though by using the "Duncan's teammates" theory, one could certainly make the argument.
I'm posting in this thread cause I'm bored and there's not much else to discuss.

I don't really see what other stars not getting over the hump on good teams has to do with anything here. We're not comparing them to Duncan. And of course Duncan is a great player. Is anyone disagreeing there? I don't see it, and if they are they are in the very small minority, so why let it bother you?

There is nothing wrong with pointing out that Duncan has had a very favorable situation to win titles in during his career. There's also nothing wrong with pointing out when people take that argument too far. But it just isn't worth having its own thread.

And there are certainly people who try to lower players like Russell on the all time list because of their teammates. Happens all the time.
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:57 PM   #57
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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Originally Posted by John Starks
Its part of his resume - but when you say KOBE IS THE GREATEST PLAYER MOST WELL ROUNDED CLUTCH CHAMPION IN THE LEAGUE - and use those titles as an example, it must be taken into account that he was the Pippen on those teams not the MJ...and when it is argued that he is better than Duncan, it must be taken into account that Duncan is the MJ on all of his teams.

Thats fine but lets say we're comparing Kobe to Iverson and some guy puts in Kobe's 3 rings to support Kobe's case. The next guy: "If Iverson played with Shaq, he'd have those titles too"

I cannot tell you how many times I've seen examples like these. People love to use the IFs with Kobe when it comes to that.
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Old 08-16-2007, 06:02 PM   #58
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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Originally Posted by hotsizzle
Thats fine but lets say we're comparing Kobe to Iverson and some guy puts in Kobe's 3 rings to support Kobe's case. The next guy: "If Iverson played with Shaq, he'd have those titles too"

I cannot tell you how many times I've seen examples like these. People love to use the IFs with Kobe when it comes to that.

The team swap argument is as annoying as it is unavailing. It is curious that a season after Kobe wins his titles with prime-Shaq, Wade wins a title with post-prime Shaq. Doesn't discredit the titles, it just casts doubt on how important KOBE really was.
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Old 08-16-2007, 06:04 PM   #59
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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...and this is just annoying.

Who was 2nd fiddle, Magic or Kareem? Was Kobe more important than either one of them? Was Kobe really more important than Drexler on the Hou team? Watch the series. Drex was the fastest guy on the floor for the entire 4 games. That Hou team was going ot miss the playoffs before Drex came, and he lifted them to the 6th seed and drove them to that 2nd title.

Was he more important than Dumars, who actually won a finals MVP? Scottie and MJ won 6 titles together. They were the constants - and Pippen represented himself without mJ better than Kobe ever has without Shaq. Was he really more important?

You know what's really annoying here? How you took something I said and acted like I was proclaiming Kobe the god of all second fiddles, and acting like no one else ever came close.

I stated that no second fiddle has ever been relied upon in the clutch to the same degree as Kobe, which isn't really debatable. And I stated that he has an argument for being the greatest second fiddle of all time, and comparing him to the likes of McHale and Worthy in that regard was stupid.

Was Drex more important than Kobe? It's certainly arguable, but it's an argument you would probably lose. Same with Dumars. Pippen played a very different role than Kobe, but he played it to perfection, and never let it slip like Kobe did (against the Pistons), so I would argue Pippen was more important. But then, I can see the other side of the argument as well, and it's certainly not a huge gap either way.

So again, please stop putting words in my mouth, and please try actually comprehending what I say before you go making a fool of yourself.
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Old 08-16-2007, 06:15 PM   #60
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Why do they say it? It's simple, whenever someone says that player X is the best player in the NBA, Kobe fans get hurt and come up with anything to discredit player X as the best player. It gets worse when you talk about any other SG being the best SG. Many Kobe fans dislike other SG/SF. Tell me this isn't true. Before you get all hurt, I sad...not everyone is like this but many Kobe fans are. I can never see a highlight of T-Mac, Wade, LeBron, Arenas, Pierce, Allen, Iverson, Carmelo....etc....without my Laker friends making some lame comment to try and proove Kobe is the best....get over your man-crush. Learn to appreciate other players without interjecting Kobe in the conversation all the freakin time.
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