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Old 08-16-2007, 06:19 PM   #61
John Starks
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldNugg21
You know what's really annoying here? How you took something I said and acted like I was proclaiming Kobe the god of all second fiddles, and acting like no one else ever came close.

I stated that no second fiddle has ever been relied upon in the clutch to the same degree as Kobe, which isn't really debatable. And I stated that he has an argument for being the greatest second fiddle of all time, and comparing him to the likes of McHale and Worthy in that regard was stupid.

What you said was:

"Because Kobe is arguably the most important second option to a championship team ever. Sure, Shaq was the best player, but Kobe filled the role of Jordan when the game was on the line. No other second fiddle has ever done that, so to say that Kobe is equal to McHale and Worthy in terms of importance to those teams is a major slight"

..so, just so I understand your eloquent point, when you say "Because Kobe is arguably the most important second option to a championship team ever." you really mean he had mroe clutch shots than Worthy or McHale. Worthy was the 3rd option.

But you know there was basketball before 1980, Cousy was a 2nd fiddle, West was a second fiddle..and releid on for all the clutch shots. Magic was the 2nd fiddle and he took- or set up - the clutch shots.

There are alot of "2nd fiddles" who made big shots.

KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE

I know he was the MJ - excpet that MJ was the leading scorer and the MVP - Kobe was the 2nd fiddle. Was he the MJ of 2nd fiddles? That I don't know, its a complex question, because I think West probably is, followed by Magic, and probably any 2nd fiddle that ever won a finals-MVP. Then Kobe.
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Old 08-16-2007, 06:25 PM   #62
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Starks
What you said was:

"Because Kobe is arguably the most important second option to a championship team ever. Sure, Shaq was the best player, but Kobe filled the role of Jordan when the game was on the line. No other second fiddle has ever done that, so to say that Kobe is equal to McHale and Worthy in terms of importance to those teams is a major slight"

..so, just so I understand your eloquent point, when you say "Because Kobe is arguably the most important second option to a championship team ever." you really mean he had mroe clutch shots than Worthy or McHale. Worthy was the 3rd option.

But you know there was basketball before 1980, Cousy was a 2nd fiddle, West was a second fiddle..and releid on for all the clutch shots. Magic was the 2nd fiddle and he took- or set up - the clutch shots.

There are alot of "2nd fiddles" who made big shots.

KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE

I know he was the MJ - excpet that MJ was the leading scorer and the MVP - Kobe was the 2nd fiddle. Was he the MJ of 2nd fiddles? That I don't know, its a complex question, because I think West probably is, followed by Magic, and probably any 2nd fiddle that ever won a finals-MVP. Then Kobe.

Like James Worthy? Or Joe Dumars? Or... Tony Parker?

You're wrong my friend...let it go...
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Old 08-16-2007, 06:30 PM   #63
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Starks
There are alot of "2nd fiddles" who made big shots.

KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE

I know he was the MJ - excpet that MJ was the leading scorer and the MVP - Kobe was the 2nd fiddle. Was he the MJ of 2nd fiddles? That I don't know, its a complex question, because I think West probably is, followed by Magic, and probably any 2nd fiddle that ever won a finals-MVP. Then Kobe.

Not as much as Kobe. Kobe was the "go-to" guy in the 4th qtr. He was responsible for many playoff victories taking over in the 4th qtr.

Kobe > Dumars, Parker, Worthy easily.
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Old 08-16-2007, 06:33 PM   #64
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
What you said was:

"Because Kobe is arguably the most important second option to a championship team ever. Sure, Shaq was the best player, but Kobe filled the role of Jordan when the game was on the line. No other second fiddle has ever done that, so to say that Kobe is equal to McHale and Worthy in terms of importance to those teams is a major slight"

..so, just so I understand your eloquent point, when you say "Because Kobe is arguably the most important second option to a championship team ever." you really mean he had mroe clutch shots than Worthy or McHale. Worthy was the 3rd option.

But you know there was basketball before 1980, Cousy was a 2nd fiddle, West was a second fiddle..and releid on for all the clutch shots. Magic was the 2nd fiddle and he took- or set up - the clutch shots.

There are alot of "2nd fiddles" who made big shots.

KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE KOBE

I know he was the MJ - excpet that MJ was the leading scorer and the MVP - Kobe was the 2nd fiddle. Was he the MJ of 2nd fiddles? That I don't know, its a complex question, because I think West probably is, followed by Magic, and probably any 2nd fiddle that ever won a finals-MVP. Then Kobe.

Way to both trivialize everything I said and not understand it. The entire point was that when people put down Kobe by saying he played with Shaq, it's nothing like pointing out that Worthy and McHale don't get bashed for playing with Magic and Bird.

The reason for the is that Bryant played the role of the best player on the team in the closing moments of games. It's not just that he made clutch shots- plenty of second fiddles make clutch shots. It's that when there was a last second shot to be taken for the Lakers, everyone in the building knew who was going to take it.

And it's it's very arguable that Magic was the #1 player on that team, not an aging Kareem. Either way, though, it's irrelevant to what was being discussed. Not that it seems to matter to you- you just took one look at what I wrote, exaggerated it in your mind, took it out of context, and started bashing me for being a Kobe homer, which couldn't be farther from the truth.
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Old 08-16-2007, 06:43 PM   #65
John Starks
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

OK -lets pretend I'm 7. Let me see if I understand...

That Kobe, unlike any other "second fiddle" in history was responsible in the 4th quater, and thus, was the most important. Is that right? Or am I still being dense.

Because I just don't know how he was more important than J.West or one of Kareem/Magic, or Cousy. Seems like those guys had equal if not greater 4th quarter roles, but are being undervalued becuase you didn't see them.

...and you keep harping on McHale and Worthy and i say, there are other 2nd Fiddles in history besides McHale and Worthy.
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Old 08-16-2007, 06:51 PM   #66
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

does this make duncan's titles worth more than shaqs because duncan didnt have a better second fiddle than shaq? iam not stating, just asking.


just want to throw some fuel on the fire, its all in good fun lol.
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Old 08-16-2007, 06:52 PM   #67
John Starks
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SsKSpurs21
does this make duncan's titles worth more than shaqs because duncan didnt have a better second fiddle than shaq? iam not stating, just asking.


just want to throw some fuel on the fire, its all in good fun lol.

Nobody had a better 2nd fiddle than Shaq. He had the MJ of 2nd fiddles
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Old 08-16-2007, 07:03 PM   #68
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Starks
OK -lets pretend I'm 7. Let me see if I understand...

That Kobe, unlike any other "second fiddle" in history was responsible in the 4th quater, and thus, was the most important. Is that right? Or am I still being dense.

Because I just don't know how he was more important than J.West or one of Kareem/Magic, or Cousy. Seems like those guys had equal if not greater 4th quarter roles, but are being undervalued becuase you didn't see them.

...and you keep harping on McHale and Worthy and i say, there are other 2nd Fiddles in history besides McHale and Worthy.
You might as well be 7, because you're still trying to argue something that both has nothing to do with the point that I made, and I never argued. Try and find where I said Kobe was better than Kareem/Magic, West, or Cousy.

Here's what you did. You took something I said out of context, completely assumed that I meant something I explicitly didn't say, and are now trying to call me out for it (despite the fact that I never said it).

Imagine we were talking about how the Bulls had an amazing supporting cast and Jordan shouldn't get as many props for his titles as he does. Someone states that Rodman was arguably the best rebounder of all time. The next person comes into the thread, sees that statement, and than goes on to blast the said poster, talks about Chamberlain and Russell, and claims that "you're just assuming Rodman is better because all he ever did was rebound and you never saw Russell or Chamberlain play".

That's basically what you just did. You are arguing a point with someone who doesn't exist, because everything you say contends a point that no one in this thread ever made. Please, start your own topic if that's what you want to discuss. But don't put words in my mouth, and don't even try to act like I'm "uninformed" because of something that you made up in your mind.
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Old 08-16-2007, 07:42 PM   #69
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricForman
I dunno why you get so worked up and start a new thread over this. All you have to do is list Kobe's teammates from 1998 to 2004. Ask them if they think Manu Ginobili+Tony Parker+Brent Barry+Mike Finley+Robert Horry is better than Shaq+Eddie Jones+Nick Van Exel+Elden Campbell+Robert Horry.... or ask them if aging David Robinson+rookie Tony Parker+young Manu in 2003 is a better cast than prime Shaq+Glen Rice+Fisher+Fox+Horry+Ron Harper

They will ignore it EVERYTIME. Once they ignore it, you win.

That's all you need to do. There is no reason to get worked up over something this silly. There is no way, no how they can spin it to make it look like Duncan has more talent/help around him ever than Kobe did from 1998 to 2004, especially between 2000 to 2004(Kobe 3 rings/Duncan 1 ring).

I love Kobe as a player and this is the weakest most ignorant attempt at opposition to him that I have ever read. Campbell, Jones and Van Exel were gone before Kobe became a starter in 99 (Lockout Year). The Spurs lived with one another that year while the Lakers lost Del Harris, a disgruntled Rodman, Elden, Eddie, Nick, The Forum and added Glen Rice along the way. The Spurs swept the Lakers in the Conference Semis. He won one with Glen Rice the following year as they beat the Spurs 4-1 in the Semis (See quotes below). Two rings with Harper. He won three with Horry, Fox, Fisher and Shaq. What was your point again? Remember 2002? The Spurs couldn't handle Kobe.

Tim Duncan (SAS): "I thought we really had a chance at this series, the Lakers proved to be more than we could handle."

David Robinson (SAS): "At the end (of the game) they have Kobe Bryant, that's kind of a nice luxury."
http://www.lakersuniverse.com/playof...akersspurs.htm

One glaring hole in your credibility is listing Barry and Finley when neither one of them was a pivotal part of the Spurs championships. If you'd said Sean Elliot, Mario Elie, Avery Johnson, Glen Robinson or even Stephen "Hay Maker" Jackson I'd give you some credit.

Duncan is one of the greatest power forwards to ever play the game. He's clearly top 2. His greatness has no weight in weather Kobe is an awesome player and the best individual in the game today. No need to diss TD. He's a legend, Kobe's a phenomena.
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Old 08-16-2007, 07:45 PM   #70
John Starks
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

I'm asking for clarity --and I asked for it in the last post, and you chose to insult me instead of elucidating. If you're point is as important as you think it is, it bears repeating so the dumb ones -- like me - can have a chance to retort on its merits, and not the fictional point I thought I read.

What is the point I am supposed ot be arguing with you?
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Old 08-20-2007, 05:11 AM   #71
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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Old 08-20-2007, 05:20 AM   #72
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

kobe kobe kobe kobe
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Old 08-20-2007, 06:18 AM   #73
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Has anyone on this thread figured out that GoldNugg isn't even a Kobe fan?

You ****** are blind. You know you're wasting your time elaborately arguing with Kobe fans that are predominantly entering puberty.

For the Thread starter, Bird, Magic, Duncan >>> Kobe

Generally, the parameters for comparing two players are based on achievement. In this case, Kobe is destroyed by Duncan.

In the past, it was pure skill. For instance, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, and even the Big O did not win much but they are consistently placed in the top 10 or for Baylor, around 20.

If you want to compare Kobe and Duncan skill wise, that's an entirely different issue that I refuse to tackle because i'm not equipped to do so.

Maybe Loki or Kblaze can do that for you.
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Old 08-20-2007, 06:21 AM   #74
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

Because Kobe + his fans = stupidity.
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Old 08-20-2007, 08:49 AM   #75
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Default Re: Why Do Only Kobe Fans Use the "Duncan's Team" Argument?

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What happened to your Udoka is not signing with Spurs thread
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