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Old 08-17-2007, 10:34 PM   #16
kentatm
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Default Re: Federal ID plan raises privacy concerns (should raise red flags in people's nogon

Quote:
Originally Posted by -primetime-
someone please explain to me how having one ID card across the nation suddenly mean we have no freedom...?

do you really give a sh-it about what ID they decide to give us is?

we already have one...it is called your Social Security Card...

you guys have to get over your paranoid thoughts...you will still be able to get a job or start a business and feed your family...you will still be able to go to the mall or to a movie on the weekends....you will still be able to watch a football game with your kids and a couple beers...

stop sweatin the little things


Prime, the issue is its a VERY slippery slope they are treading on. They already passed a law that says they can spy on whoever with NO oversight regardless of if you are or have ever been deemed a threat.

An ID to just get into the airport or a state park? F that.

You take all these little things and eventually they will add up and make it extremely easy for a fascist (or socialist for that matter) dictator to take over.
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Old 08-17-2007, 10:37 PM   #17
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Default Re: Federal ID plan raises privacy concerns (should raise red flags in people's nogons)

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Originally Posted by ElKuKuy
America needs to wake up and listen to what this man is saying.He is one of the many few who voted against BOTH Patriot Acts.

He is pretty much warning us on whats in store for us.
the Patriot act gives our government the authority to listen to our phone calls...

they had the authority to do that anyway...

why are americans so paranoid of being listened to?
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Old 08-17-2007, 10:43 PM   #18
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Default Re: Federal ID plan raises privacy concerns (should raise red flags in people's nogon

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Originally Posted by kentatm
You take all these little things and eventually they will add up and make it extremely easy for a fascist (or socialist for that matter) dictator to take over.
please explain how having one unified ID card rather than seperate state licences suddenly opens the door for Hitler to step in?

and do you really think there is some secret plot to do this?

do you really believe that america wants to become the new Nazi Germany?

Is this what Hilary and Obama are shooting for?

we are the ones who vote our leaders into office...in order to win the american vote they are going to have to give the people what the people want...

the day that we are not allowed to vote is the day that I move to Europe...
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Old 08-17-2007, 10:54 PM   #19
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Default Re: Federal ID plan raises privacy concerns (should raise red flags in people's nogon

Quote:
Originally Posted by -primetime-
the Patriot act gives our government the authority to listen to our phone calls...

they had the authority to do that anyway...

why are americans so paranoid of being listened to?

its not that people have a problem with wire tapping. Its that they have a problem with wiretapping that has NO oversight. Right now as the law goes Bush can tell one person directly to spy on somebody and those two will be the only ones to know.

Quote:
please explain how having one unified ID card rather than seperate state licences suddenly opens the door for Hitler to step in?

and do you really think there is some secret plot to do this?

do you really believe that america wants to become the new Nazi Germany?

Is this what Hilary and Obama are shooting for?

we are the ones who vote our leaders into office...in order to win the american vote they are going to have to give the people what the people want...

the day that we are not allowed to vote is the day that I move to Europe...

sigh...

did you not read? I said its all the little things added up that make it possible. A national ID that you have to show to get into public places would be a method of tracking peoples movements. Great except actual terrorists WONT be using those IDs anyway. So who would we really be tracking?

Also, they now have the power to arrest you, detain you and NEVER give you access to a lawyer. You can now essentially be picked up and taken away like in Soviet Russia. That flat out goes against the Constitution.

Currently no I dont believe Nazis are currently trying to take over. Thanks for the hyperbole.

Like I said, if we keep adding laws like these then we are setting ourselves up for a dictator to come in, declare marshal law and then anyone who questions him is going ot get sent off to jail to never be seen again.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Our govt was found under the thought that checks and balances are needed to protect the masses from anyone being able to become a dictator (they called it a king then but i digreess). Right now we are seeing those checks being systematically removed and it sets an extremely dangerous precedent.
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:13 PM   #20
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Default Re: Federal ID plan raises privacy concerns (should raise red flags in people's nogon

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Originally Posted by XxNeXuSxX
Terrorists hate us for our foreign policy in general.

Got to love how we are moving towards a police state. Ron Paul as president is the only one who can save this country. Not Obama, Not Hillary, and certainly not the other liberal ¨republican¨ candidates.



We are awake

have been awake for a very long time

and we realize that views like yours are debunked and have led us to the colossal failures of leadership that set the conditions for 9-11

meaning that incompetent liberals have no business leading, as they held your views and now we know that these views are stupid.

have a nice day.
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:14 PM   #21
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Default Re: Federal ID plan raises privacy concerns (should raise red flags in people's nogons)

They hate us because we will not proclaim their version of Allah as the one true God or Muhammed as his Prophet. We reject the Sunnah. We reject Sharia.

They hate us because we believe that mankind is endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights.

They hate us because we believe in a government of laws rather than men, even men who believe that God endowed them with the power to speak and govern for Him.

They hate us because ww believe that the natural riches of the world belong to all men, not just the Ummah.

They hate us because we refuse to accept that all lands conquered by Muslims are Muslim lands forever.

They hate us because we believe in equal rights for all humans, including women and those who choose not to worship any God.

They hate us because we believe in these concepts so strongly, we will die for them. But more importantly, we tell the world what we believe, even Muslims.

They hate us because they are evil, and we are not.
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:18 PM   #22
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Default Re: Federal ID plan raises privacy concerns (should raise red flags in people's nogons)

What about the foreign policies of Jihadists? Why are they never under scrutiny? If I recall correctly, Jihadists have been around longer than this country has existed... so why is everything they do a reaction to what others apparently do to them? Why isn't what others do to them a reaction to what they do? Hmmm?
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:18 PM   #23
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Default Re: Federal ID plan raises privacy concerns (should raise red flags in people's nogon

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Originally Posted by kentatm
did you not read? I said its all the little things added up that make it possible. A national ID that you have to show to get into public places would be a method of tracking peoples movements. Great except actual terrorists WONT be using those IDs anyway. So who would we really be tracking?
The ones that are here learning how to fly an airplane into a building?
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:20 PM   #24
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Default Re: Federal ID plan raises privacy concerns (should raise red flags in people's nogons)

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Undoubtedly this is a problem from which the ummah suffers from time to time, especially when it is faced with trials and tribulations and these hypocrites feel secure and feel that they will not be punished if they attack the foundations of this religion and try to spread division and tribulation.

Undoubtedly the damage that these people do is greater than that caused by the kuffaar whose kufr is obvious, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“They are the enemies, so beware of them. May Allaah curse them! How are they denying (or deviating from) the Right Path?”

[al-Munaafiqoon 63:4]

Because of that, it is prescribed to wage jihad against them and to treat them harshly.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said concerning the Nusayris, among whom were some who expressed their kufr and heresy openly and others who made a hypocritical show of loving Ahl al-Bayt (the members of the Prophet’s household):

Undoubtedly waging jihad against these people and carrying out the hadd punishments against them is one of the greatest acts of obedience and most important obligatory actions. It is better than waging jihad against those mushrikeen and people of the Book who do not fight the Muslims, for waging jihad against these comes under the same heading as waging jihad against the apostates. Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq and all the Sahaabah started with jihad against the apostates before they engaged in jihad against the kuffaar of the people of the Book, for jihad against these (the apostates) is a means to protect the lands that are already under Muslim rule, and to deter anyone who wants to apostatize. Jihad against the mushrikeen and people of the Book who are not fighting us is an additional manifestation of the power of this religion. Protecting the capital takes precedence over making profit.

Moreover the harm that these people (hypocrites) cause to the Muslims is greater than that caused by others (kaafirs), indeed their harm is like that caused by the mushrikeen and people of the Book who fight the Muslims. The damage that they do to the religious commitment of many people is worse than the damage done by those mushrikeen and people of the Book who wage war on us. Every Muslim must do as much as he can of his duty. It is not permissible for anyone to keep quiet about anything that he knows about them, rather he must broadcast it so that the Muslims will know what they really are. It is not permissible for anyone to help them to remain among the troops and government employees, or for anyone to keep quiet and refrain from carrying out against them that which Allaah and His Messenger have enjoined. It is not permissible for anyone to speak against carrying out what Allaah and His Messenger have enjoined. This is one of the greatest types of enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil, and of striving in jihad for the sake of Allaah. Allaah said to His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them”

[al-Tawbah 9:73]

These people are included in this phrase “the disbelievers and the hypocrites”.

The one who helps to put a stop to their evil and to guide them as much as he can will have of reward that which is known only to Allaah, for the primary purpose is to guide them as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“You (true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad and his Sunnah) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:110]

Abu Hurayrah said: You are the best of people for people, you bring them in chains and fetters until they enter Islam. (al-Bukhaari, 4557).

The purpose of jihad and of enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil, is to guide people to what is best for them in this world and in the Hereafter, as much as possible; then whomsoever Allaah guides will find happiness in this world and in the Hereafter, and whomsoever He does not guide, his evil will be contained.

Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 35/159-160

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The Muslim ummah must respond in kind when it is attacked. So with regard to those who fight Islam with ideas and words, we must explain the falseness of what they say using rational evidence as well as shar’i evidence, so that the falseness of what they say will become apparent.

With regard to those who fight Islam by economic means, we must ward them off and attack them if possible, by using the same means with which they attack Islam. We must explain that the best way to strengthen the economy in a just manner is the Islamic way.

With regard to those who attack Islam with weapons, we must resist them in a similar fashion. Hence Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them, their abode is Hell, — and worst indeed is that destination”

[al-Tawbah 9:73]

It is well known that jihad against the hypocrites is not like jihad against the kuffaar, because jihad against the hypocrites is fought with knowledge and argument, whilst jihad against the kuffaar is fought with swords and arrows.


http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=42534&ln=eng


How long ago was that written before this country even existed, much less how long was it before we decided to have a foreign policy?
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:25 PM   #25
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Default Re: Federal ID plan raises privacy concerns (should raise red flags in people's nogons)

XxNeXuSxX,

Your analysis is the equivalent of blaming American foreign policy for Imperial Japan/Nazi Germany fighting against us when we invaded territories under their control.

It also fails to account for the Iraqis who wanted America to finish the job it began in the twentieth century, and it wrongly identifies as "Iraqis" foreign jihadists.

Most of all, it fails to acknowledge that Islam needs no pretext for war other than the target's refusal to submit to the rule of Allah because that is what its god and prophet command.

When Islam slaughtered the pagans of Arabia who wouldn't submit to Allah, was that the fault of Pagan-Arabian foreign policy?

When Islam enslaved and slaughtered the Christians and Jews of the Holy Land, was that the fault of "People of the Book" foreign policy?

When Islam enslaved and slaughtered the Zoroastrians of ancient Persia, was that the fault of Persian foreign policy?

When Islam enslaved and slaughtered the Christians, Jews, and animists of North Africa and Egypt, was that the fault of North African foreign policy?

When Islam slaughtered 70-80 million Hindus in India, was that the fault of Indian foreign policy?

When Islam subjugated and slaughtered the people of the Iberian Peninsula (it took Spain 800 years to finally defeat the Moors and take back their land), was that the fault of Iberian foreign policy?

When Islam enslaved and slaughtered the peoples of eastern Europe (up to Vienna in the seventeenth century, but including Greeks, Armenians, Slavs, et al), was that the fault of their failed foreign policies?

When Islam raped, enslaved, and slaughtered the people of the Great City Constantinople, was that the fault of Byzantine foreign policy?

When Islam enslaved millions (one estimate puts it at a billion) of Europeans over the centuries, was that the fault of European foreign policy?

When, if not for Martel and Sobieski and countless other heroes, Europe would have fallen to Allah, would that have been the fault of European foreign policy also?

When Islam enslaved and slaughtered American sailors in the earliest days of the nation, was that the fault of American foreign policy?

When Islam enters a Sudanese village (back before Darfur was fashionable), asks a woman, "Muslim or Christian?" and then gang rapes, slices the breasts off, and leaves to die in the street those who answer wrongly, is that the fault of Sudanese villager foreign policy?

When Islam beheads Christian schoolgirls in Indonesia to shouts of "Allahu Akbar!" is that the fault of schoolgirl foreign policy?

When Beslan schoolchildren and teachers are raped and slaughtered in the name of Allah, is that the fault of Russian foreign policy?

When American, English, Spanish, Australian, and Israeli civilians are targeted because their countries are defending themselves by hunting down those everyone tells us are "misunderstanderers" of the Religion of Peace, whose fault is that?
You hope that the hordes of Allah slaughter due to something we've done because that means we might have some way to make them stop hating us. That's wishful thinking.

Islam blames its victims when they fight back. It's a shame you're doing it too.
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:28 PM   #26
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Default Re: Federal ID plan raises privacy concerns (should raise red flags in people's nogons)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heilige
They hate us because they are evil, and we are not.


youre starting to sound like georgie bush with that

Last edited by YAWN : 08-17-2007 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:36 PM   #27
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Default Re: Federal ID plan raises privacy concerns (should raise red flags in people's nogons)

If they hate us for our foreign policy, why aren't South and Central Americans (much more heavy handed and longer history of "interventions") flying planes into skyscrapers?

Why was it, again that bin Laden didn't want US troops on Saudi soil? Because they weren't Arab?

Surprisingly, South and Central Americans (and we could add Eastern Europe to the mix) don't have the Islamist concept of "jahiliyyah". It's similar to the Marxist idea of "false conciousness" where the mere existence of a capitalist society will lead the proletariat astray.

bin Laden and al Qaeda doesn't hate the gov't Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia (and others) for their "foreign policy", or "interventionism". He's attacked them all because he consideres them "apostate regimes" who are misleading the Muslim world from (his version of) Islam.

Perhaps someone here has read the writings of Sayyid Qutb? It's essential to understand al Qaeda and their motivations. The idea that bin Laden would be running a newspaper route in Khartoum, if it weren't for our "interventionism" is a false one, if you understand the ideology.

The most oppressive occupations of the 20th century have rarely resulted in terrorism (against civillians) as a weapon of choice; Western or Eastern Europe in WWII, China and Korea under Japanese occupation, Cambodia under the Vietamese, South Africa under apartheid, the Ibo under the Nigerians, the Turks in Armenia, Eastern Europe under the Soviets or vicious Stalinist Soviet occupation of Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuation, Estonia, etc. These more numerous, far more bloody occupations, lacking terrorism are constantly ignored. Any of these resulted in situations often much worse than anything Arabs have ever had to contend with (except of course at the hands of their own regimes). Why then, do they do it? The answer lies in culture and religion not just the fact of occupation. Seemingly ignorant of history, this justification for Islamist terrorism.

I am not saying that all Muslims are radical Islamists and don't hold that belief at all.

I am saying that Islamic fundamentalists have a long history of violence, enslavement and slaughter. The west overcame our penchant for violence hundreds of years ago. Radical Islam is still preaching tenets of barbarism that are 1,400 years old.

Islam is responsible for more deaths in world history than Nazi Germany, Stalinist USSR and Pol Pot, combined. They killed tens of millions of Hindus alone. They slaughtered Jews by the hundreds of thousands. They slaughtered Persians, Greeks, Slavs, Tibetans, Malaysians and Spaniards.

They did all this when the world was still flat and the seas were infested with monsters, and a bunch of liberals with pubescent mentalities expect us to believe that they hate us because of our foreign policy?!?

The Barbary Wars were our first confrontation with imperialist Muslims. That conflict, which began in 1801, came about because the imperialists told our ambassador:

Quote:
... that [the right to hold our sailors as slaves] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet (Mohammed), that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman (or Muslim) who should be slain in battle was sure to go to heaven.

Islamists hate us because we will not answer to the authority of their ghod. We reject the Sunna. We reject Sharia. We will govern ourselves.

Our women are our equals and they are free to dress as they please. They are free to become educated. They can choose their own husband, and divorce him if he is unfaithful.

And, they hate us when we fight back.
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:45 PM   #28
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Default Re: Federal ID plan raises privacy concerns (should raise red flags in people's nogons)

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Originally Posted by YAWN
youre starting to sound like georgie bush with that


The capacity for reason is what fails you.

John 8:2-11
"At dawn He (Jesus) appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap in order to have a basis to accuse Him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with His finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to threw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one sir", she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Hadith Abu Dawud, #4428
"Buraidah said: "A woman of Ghamid came to the Prophet and said: "I have committed fornication", He said: "Go back". She returned and on the next day she came to him again, and said: "Perhaps you want to send me back as you did to Maiz b. Malik. I swear by Allah, I am pregnant." He said to her: "Go back". She then returned and came to him the next day. He said to her: "Go back until you give birth to the child." She then returned. When she gave birth to the child she brought the child to him, and said: "Here it is! I have given birth to it." He said: "Go back, and suckle him until you wean him." When she had weaned him, she brought him to him with something in his hand which he was eating. The boy was then given to a certain man of the Muslims and he (the prophet) commanded regarding her. So a pit was dug for her, and he gave orders about her and she was stoned to death.

Mathew, 22:34-39;
"Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together.One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Hadith by Bukhari, Vol.1 Book 2 #25;
"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next?" He replied, "To participate in Jihad [for] Allah's Cause."

Declaration of Independence
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...
Qur'an 3:85
If anyone desires rule other than Islam, never will he be accepted of God; and in the next life, he will be in the ranks of those who have lost themselves and will burn in hell.

They hate us for our willingness to forgive, and our unwillingness to submit to tyranny.
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:53 PM   #29
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Default Re: Federal ID plan raises privacy concerns (should raise red flags in people's nogons)

These threads always remind me of this:
Quote:
David Cross: on Bush saying "the terrorists hate our freedom"
I don't think Osama bin Laden sent those planes to attack us because he hated our freedom. I think he did it because of our support for Israel, our ties with the Saudi family and our military bases in Saudi Arabia.
You know why I think that? Because that's what he ****ing said!!!!!
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:56 PM   #30
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Default Re: Federal ID plan raises privacy concerns (should raise red flags in people's nogons)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heilige
The capacity for reason is what fails you.

They hate us for our willingness to forgive, and our unwillingness to submit to tyranny.

So basically they hate us because we have different views.

sounds like the same reason we hate them...
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