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Old 07-16-2006, 02:48 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by God of BasketBall
Watch him copy and paste what Loki wrote on antoher board so he can get credit and props. Dont do it Loki. I've seen his kind before.


I respect Loki too much to do that pal.
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Old 07-16-2006, 02:53 PM   #17
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Jordan is the GOAT for not just what he did on the court, but also off the court and what he did for the game of basketball. MJ is one of the main reasons the NBA is as big as it is today. He had everyone, and i mean everyone trying to be "Like Mike". Most people here and lots of the younger players in the NBA would tell you that at one point, they tried to model their game after Jordan. Also, he was and still is the mentally toughest player to ever put on a clean pair of kicks.
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Old 07-16-2006, 02:58 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by SCREWstonRockets
Jordan is the GOAT for not just what he did on the court, but also off the court and what he did for the game of basketball. MJ is one of the main reasons the NBA is as big as it is today. He had everyone, and i mean everyone trying to be "Like Mike". Most people here and lots of the younger players in the NBA would tell you that at one point, they tried to model their game after Jordan. Also, he was and still is the mentally toughest player to ever put on a clean pair of kicks.

But is he the mentally toughest player to ever put on a dirty pair of kicks? That's the burning question in the minds of all basketball fans. ;) :P
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:10 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Loki
But is he the mentally toughest player to ever put on a dirty pair of kicks? That's the burning question in the minds of all basketball fans. ;) :P


Loki, are you going to write why you think Jordan is the GOAT period?

That would probably be the greatest post ever if you did that.


Also, are you ever going to get an avatar?
A Jordan one for you would be great.
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:14 PM   #20
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Russell won, but didn't dominate the game like MJ


Again this is simply not true......I know it's hard to understand becuz you and I weren't around at the time but BIll Russell dominated the game as much and maybe MORE than MJ.....he didn't fill the scoring portion of a stat sheet....plus stats weren't even kept in the same way they were by the time MJ played.

But until WILT he was the most feared player in the L and by the time WILT entered he was teh smartest player in the L.

Everytime a player came down the lane against the Celtics they thought about Russell.......Whenever games got close they thought about Russell.....WHen they spoke they tried not to piss off Russell. Wilt's astounding numbers shine the focus on him and it's true that once he (WILT) entered he became the most feared player on both ends but Russell was a close second and people also felt like they just couldn't beat RUssell's Celtics were against the SIXERs they thought WILT was unstoppable but the SIXER's were beatable.

You have to hear see all the interviews of there contemporaries to get a feel for this.

O and the entire argument about MJ getting his without a dominant post presence is overblown......firstly the illegal defense rules in MJ's tenure meant he could basically play SHAQ in the traingle....becuz help defenses could react fast enough and you couldn't zone out so all you needed was a PF and C who could shoot from 15+ and MJ posts up any SG in the L. even guys who should have been better like Drex were terrible post defenders and MJ had a nice physical advantage on 99.9 percent of SG's plus that fadeaway.

In todays NBA a dominant POST player is more important becuz you can't as effectively duplicate it with a GUARD.

I agree with Magic's quote though every skill MJ had over Magic just don't think at that level it makes a team better...hence anyone of them could be GOAT.

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Old 07-16-2006, 04:10 PM   #21
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O and the entire argument about MJ getting his without a dominant post presence is overblown......

BTW, isn't a player considered one of the greatest defenders ever and the greatest modern rebounder enough to qualify as a dominant post presence?

Don't forget also that Magic won the 1988 title with Kareem being 41 (and led his teams to the Finals unbeaten when Kareem was 42). Also, Rick Barry won the title in 1975 with Clifford Ray as a center, hardly a dominant post player.
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Old 07-16-2006, 04:24 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Psileas
BTW, isn't a player considered one of the greatest defenders ever and the greatest modern rebounder enough to qualify as a dominant post presence?

Don't forget also that Magic won the 1988 title with Kareem being 41 (and led his teams to the Finals unbeaten when Kareem was 42). Also, Rick Barry won the title in 1975 with Clifford Ray as a center, hardly a dominant post player.

Well, Rodman was only there for the secon three-peat. Besides, when one speaks of a "dominant post presence" they generally mean offensively-- guys like Barkley, Dream, and Wilt. Nobody considers Ben Wallace a "dominant post presence" in the common parlance. If anyone is a dominant post presence on that team, it was Rasheed (when he wanted to be). Just my take on it.


As for other players who also won without a dominant post presence, well, I agree that Jordan is not the only one who has ever done so (and I never said he was, personally; to do it 6 times, though...), but if you look at the numbers, Jordan never had a center who averaged more than 9.6 ppg until his last championship (and they usually averaged significantly less), whereas 1988 Kareem was still giving you 14.6 ppg (nowhere near his prime production, but still 50-60% better from the center spot than Jordan was getting most years. Ray was comparable to the Bulls' centers in terms of production (but was better than Cartwright in '92 and '93 offensively).

Last edited by Loki : 07-16-2006 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 07-16-2006, 04:27 PM   #23
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Loki, I sent you a PM.
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Old 07-16-2006, 04:54 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Well, Rodman was only there for the secon three-peat. Besides, when one speaks of a "dominant post presence" they generally mean offensively-- guys like Barkley, Dream, and Wilt. Nobody considers Ben Wallace a "dominant post presence" in the common parlance. If anyone is a dominant post presence on that team, it was Rasheed (when he wanted to be). Just my take on it.


As for other players who also won without a dominant post presence, well, I agree that Jordan is not the only one who has ever done so (and I never said he was, personally; to do it 6 times, though...), but if you look at the numbers, Jordan never had a center who averaged more than 9.6 ppg until his last championship (and they usually averaged significantly less), whereas 1988 Kareem was still giving you 14.6 ppg (nowhere near his prime production, but still 50-60% better from the center spot than Jordan was getting most years. Ray was comparable to the Bulls' centers in terms of production (but was better than Cartwright in '92 and '93 offensively).


Doesn't matter again with illegal defense rules of the time anyone can be your post threat becuz you can simply spread the floor......MJ followed a trend of perimter players becoming more dominant he didn't buck the trend or set a new standard as a perimeter player....Switch HORACE GRANT with any center becuz he covered the best post player not just PF's you think Cartwright covered Hakeem and D-Rob?? HO wasn't a scorer but he did everything else your supposed to do. What would a Dominant or a scoring center do for MJ's game? just takeaway his biggest weapon in the second three-peat and clog the lane. How does that help? They took RODMAN for a reason scoring from the C/PF position was the last thing they needed.
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Old 07-16-2006, 05:23 PM   #25
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personally, i think that MJ was the best player of all time, talent wise. i'm not sure he really had the mental strength that Bird or magic did. and dont forget Oscar Robertson when you talk about the greatest players of all time.
Just my opinion.
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Old 07-16-2006, 05:43 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by theinfamousmobb
Cuz most people watched Jordan, almost no one watched Wilt and such players play thus they cant really speak about them.

True. Most people on this board haven't even seen players that played 20 years ago like Magic or Bird. I've only watched them when they're on ESPN Classic and the end of both there careers 90-92, but I can't say I know every part of there game . I like how alot of clowns on this board act like they've watched them play though.Comparing them to Michael for me is to premature. I'd have to watch alot more of there games to really have a better insight. But for now I rank them all as equal just about. Trying to compare him Wilt and Russell would be even harder, The only games I've watched of them is the old Finals games, but I guess ISHers have dvds or something .
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Old 07-16-2006, 07:10 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by kobe92
personally, i think that MJ was the best player of all time, talent wise. i'm not sure he really had the mental strength that Bird or magic did. and dont forget Oscar Robertson when you talk about the greatest players of all time.
Just my opinion.



You should be asking whether Bird or Magic had the mental strength Jordan did, not vice versa. (and I think they did, but I'm just saying that such a comment is laughable; Jordan was at least as mentally tough as either of them-- whether he was more mentally tough is a matter for debate)
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Old 07-16-2006, 07:47 PM   #28
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because jordan dominated the game and had no weaknesses?
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Old 07-16-2006, 07:48 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kobe92
personally, i think that MJ was the best player of all time, talent wise. i'm not sure he really had the mental strength that Bird or magic did. and dont forget Oscar Robertson when you talk about the greatest players of all time.
Just my opinion.

I think we should take it easy on someone who was born in 92
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Old 07-16-2006, 08:39 PM   #30
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Jordan was at one point the best offensive and defensive player in the leauge. Never been done before.

Only Russel won as much, he played with incredible talent, and at a time when there was what, 8 teams in the leauge? Offensively it's not even comparable.

Chamberlin dominated as much on both ends, but he won far, far less in a time when there was what, 8-12 teams in the leauge?

I think the guy who said Bird and Magic are a tiny bit overrated is right on the money.

Oscar didn't win as much and his peak was relatively short. During that peak he might have been even better then MJ at his peak, though.
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