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Old 08-26-2007, 11:37 AM   #16
SoCalMike
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Default Re: Franchise Players

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Originally Posted by wally_world
Nash = Leader

Nash = no title


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Old 08-26-2007, 11:41 AM   #17
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Default Re: Franchise Players

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Originally Posted by adamcz
The veterans who are championship level guys right now:

Duncan
Kobe
Dirk
KG
Lebron

The guys who have a chance to get there

Wade
Yao
Oden
Durant
Amare
Howard
Bosh
Jefferson
Anthony


ironic , kobe, KG, Dirk and LJ are "c. level guys ", when Wade and TD are the only on the list with the ring(s) ( as main) and with the fMVP trophy . O yes i know...wade is injuried and will never be the same again :rollingeyes:
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Old 08-26-2007, 11:46 AM   #18
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Default Re: Franchise Players

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Originally Posted by rzp
ironic , kobe, KG, Dirk and LJ are "c. level guys ", when Wade and TD are the only on the list with the ring(s) ( as main) and with the fMVP trophy . O yes i know...wade is injuried and will never be the same again :rollingeyes:
I didn't view Wade's series against Dallas as legit. Deal with it.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:01 PM   #19
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Default Re: Franchise Players

Why is Wade in the second category when he throughly outplayed Shaq in the playoffs, thus he was the undisputed best player on that team.

...and then you have guys like KG, Bryant, LeBron & Dirk on the first list and they haven't won a ring being the undisputed best player on their team.

That's the only thing I have wrong with your lists really.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: Franchise Players

It's not about who has and hasn't won a ring. It's about who is the type of player who could do it this year (group 1) or in the future (group 2). What they did in the past doesn't factor in unless they're still at the point where they could do it again.

I view Wade's championship as a collaborative effort between him, Shaq, and the refs. I don't see him as the caliber of player who could win a ring without those other two key ingredients - maybe I'm wrong. I do however put him in group 2 because I think he has the potential to become that good, and thus he's worth building around.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:26 PM   #21
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Default Re: Franchise Players

This is kind of a silly list. NO ONE can lead a team to a championship all by himself. And if you don't have one of those 5, you should do what? Give up?

Plus I think that your veteran list is too narrow. Teams SHOULD build around guys like Nash, Pierce, Arenas, and T-Mac. Sure, it would be better to have one of them as your team's #2 guy, or to build around 2 of them, but the same is true for guys like Duncan and Kobe. And obviously it would have been better to build around all those players a few years ago, but arguably top 10 players that still have a few years of their prime left, are perfectly acceptable #1's on championship contending teams. A Pierce led team will need a better supporting cast than a Kobe led team, but the difference wouldn't have to be crazy.

You could put 1 of those 4 guys on several teams each where they would become the best player and the team would be a serious championship contender.

Nash is already the Suns best player, and they are contenders. If you added Nash or Pierce or Arenas to the Rockets, they would all be arguably the best player (or maybe tied with McGrady) and they would be even more serious contenders than they already are with a team led by McGrady currently. Any of them would be the best player on the Pistons or Bulls, giving them serious depth, and making them contenders.

There might be other names you could reasonably add as well. It would DEFNITELY be wise for the Lakers to move Kobe, if they could get a Pierce/Tmac and a couple other top 50 players. Of course no team would move that much for Kobe, because he is not THAT much better. Same is true for Kevin Garnett, and Dirk as well (if he were on a bad team). The only veteran player that I would refuse to trade is Tim Duncan.

There are quite a few young players that teams wouldn't give up for a good veteran package, ranging from already established young stars like Lebron and Wade to hopefully stars like Oden and Durant. But just because a GM could reasonably trade a player doesn't mean that player is not worth building around.

Last edited by 'Toine=MVP : 08-26-2007 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:29 PM   #22
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Default Re: Franchise Players

Wade is definitely a franchise player. He was the best player all season long except for Dirk.
I'm still not sure if Lebron is a franchise player. Iverson is definitely not and never was a franchise player.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:32 PM   #23
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Default Re: Franchise Players

McGrady can't do it because he's a point forward.

Anyway, decent list Adam..I guess. But those things depand on too many factors.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:34 PM   #24
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Default Re: Franchise Players

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I'm still not sure if Lebron is a franchise player. Iverson is definitely not and never was a franchise player.

LeBron just led his team to the finals. He's probably the 3rd best player in the world right now.

Iverson led his team to the finals, and he basically beat the-then undefeated Lakers in game one at Staples. Iverson was a franchise player, it just takes a different style of players to put around him - something the 76'ers only figured out once in his career.

I really have a hard time consuming that one can ignorant enough to say Iverson was never a franchise player - let alone saying LeBron isn't one right now.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:34 PM   #25
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Default Re: Franchise Players

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonterry
Wade is definitely a franchise player. He was the best player all season long except for Dirk.
I'm still not sure if Lebron is a franchise player. Iverson is definitely not and never was a franchise player.


so Lebron and Iverson are not franchise players but 8 point (2/13) Dirk clearly is??

im glad school is starting back up for you soon, bud.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:35 PM   #26
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Default Re: Franchise Players

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Toine=MVP
This is kind of a silly list. NO ONE can lead a team to a championship all by himself. And if you don't have one of those 5, you should do what? Give up?
There are more than five guys - there are also the ones who could conceivably get that good in the future. But if you don't have a guy who can win a championship now, and don't have a guy who can win a championship in the future, then the answer is obvious - you need to try and get one!

And again, history makes things pretty clear in terms of what type of players can win championships.

2007 - Duncan
2006 - Shaq
2005 - Duncan
2004 - (The one exception year)
2003 - Duncan
2002 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2000 - Shaq
1999 - Duncan
1998 - Jordan
1997 - Jordan
1996 - Jordan
1995 - Hakeem
1994 - Hakeem
1993 - Jordan
1992 - Jordan
1991 - Jordan

You have to have a player at that elite level to win a ring, and if a player has zero chance to reach that level, he is not a franchise player. If you're a GM, you keep collecting talent and work to seek out a player like that.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:38 PM   #27
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Default Re: Franchise Players

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Originally Posted by AI Nuggets3
so Lebron and Iverson are not franchise players but 8 point (2/13) Dirk clearly is??

im glad school is starting back up for you soon, bud.

You're right. Keep whacking off to Iverson while your Nuggets lose every year in the 1st round until the day he retires.
Last year was an aberration, and I fully expect the Mavs to be back in the Finals.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:38 PM   #28
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Default Re: Franchise Players

Quote:
Originally Posted by AI Nuggets3
so Lebron and Iverson are not franchise players but 8 point (2/13) Dirk clearly is??
Well first of all, I did list Lebron as one. Second of all, Dirk is an MVP candidate who gets you a top 3 seed in the playoffs every single year, while Iverson struggles to get into the playoffs at all.
Quote:
im glad school is starting back up for you soon, bud.
Not sure how old you think I am, but when I go to school, it's to teach. And right now, I'm getting a head start on it!
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:39 PM   #29
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Default Re: Franchise Players

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamcz
There are more than five guys - there are also the ones who could conceivably get that good in the future. But if you don't have a guy who can win a championship now, and don't have a guy who can win a championship in the future, then the answer is obvious - you need to try and get one!

And again, history makes things pretty clear in terms of what type of players can win championships.

2007 - Duncan
2006 - Shaq
2005 - Duncan
2004 - (The one exception year)
2003 - Duncan
2002 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2000 - Shaq
1999 - Duncan
1998 - Jordan
1997 - Jordan
1996 - Jordan
1995 - Hakeem
1994 - Hakeem
1993 - Jordan
1992 - Jordan
1991 - Jordan

You have to have a player at that elite level to win a ring, and if a player has zero chance to reach that level, he is not a franchise player. If you're a GM, you keep collecting talent and work to seek out a player like that.

At the same time, you'll also notice that the guys on that list always had the best supporting casts around them.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:42 PM   #30
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Default Re: Franchise Players

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonterry
At the same time, you'll also notice that the guys on that list always had the best supporting casts around them.
What's your point? You have to have an elite player to win it. If your best player is Redd or Gasol or Brand, you can surround them with great supporting casts all you want, and win nothing.
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