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Old 08-26-2007, 01:42 PM   #31
OneWay
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Default Re: Franchise Players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manute for Ever!
Not a troll at all, I respect Kobes abilities, but he can't seem to carry a team, is a constant disruption with his trade demands due to lack of team success, and he hasn't made his teammates better. He is an excellent second-fiddle, but as of yet (this may change as he is now reaching his true prime), he hasn't been able to carry anything. You mentioned Kidd as a good player, but not a franchise player and this is where I see Kobe. Kidd is an all time great, as will be Kobe, but I think they are both players that are better off being pieces of a larger puzzle. Stockton would not be half as great without Malone, Jordan didn't win anything until Pippen emerged, Kidd and Kobe need some decent help, then they will be franchise players. Strictly MY opinion.

That's a dreadful analysis, you know that?

Talent wise, the Lakers are not a top 8 team in the western conference to begin with.
Yet they made the playoffs 2 years in a row in a ruthless western conference.
Despite the starting SF and PF missing 48 games combined and despite 2 best centers missing 123 games combined and despite the only healthy startling line up player being Smush ****ing Parker.
Lack of team success? Buzz off. Talent wins games. The Lakers don't have it. And they're injury prone.

Constant trade demands? Um, they started this summer. After Kobe realized he was being used to make money for the Buss, not to win.
After what the Lakers have done before and this summer, it's clear that building around Kobe isn't their main objective no matter what they say.

How can you be so ignorant? Seriously. How can you blame Kobe for the Lakers sad state of affair.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:44 PM   #32
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Default Re: Franchise Players

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Originally Posted by adamcz
What's your point? You have to have an elite player to win it. If your best player is Redd or Gasol or Brand, you can surround them with great supporting casts all you want, and win nothing.

I agree with you that there are probably only 5-7 real franchise players in the game. My point is that individual greatness is overrated in the NBA because every supposed "winner" has always been surrounded by the best teammates.
There's no doubt in my mind that nowitzki and garnett are every bit as good as Duncan.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:44 PM   #33
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Default Re: Franchise Players

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Originally Posted by adamcz
What's your point? You have to have an elite player to win it. If your best player is Redd or Gasol or Brand, you can surround them with great supporting casts all you want, and win nothing.

I agree with you that there are probably only 5-7 real franchise players in the game. My point is that individual greatness is overrated in the NBA because every supposed "winner" has always been surrounded by the best teammates.
There's no doubt in my mind that nowitzki and garnett are every bit as good as Duncan.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:45 PM   #34
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Default Re: Franchise Players

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Originally Posted by OneWay
That's a dreadful analysis, you know that?

Talent wise, the Lakers are not a top 8 team in the western conference to begin with.
Yet they made the playoffs 2 years in a row in a ruthless western conference.
Despite the starting SF and PF missing 48 games combined and despite 2 best centers missing 123 games combined and despite the only healthy startling line up player being Smush ****ing Parker.
Lack of team success? Buzz off. Talent wins games. The Lakers don't have it. And they're injury prone.

Constant trade demands? Um, they started this summer. After Kobe realized he was being used to make money for the Buss, not to win.
After what the Lakers have done before and this summer, it's clear that building around Kobe isn't their main objective no matter what they say.

How can you be so ignorant? Seriously. How can you blame Kobe for the Lakers sad state of affair.

Kobe had caron butler and lamar odom and couldnt make the playoffs. that same year Dirk took a completely new mavs team to the 3rd best record.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:47 PM   #35
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Default Re: Franchise Players

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Originally Posted by adamcz
Well first of all, I did list Lebron as one. Second of all, Dirk is an MVP candidate who gets you a top 3 seed in the playoffs every single year, while Iverson struggles to get into the playoffs at all.
Not sure how old you think I am, but when I go to school, it's to teach. And right now, I'm getting a head start on it!

horrible, horrible 1983 era come back. did you pump your first into your hip too after that?

but the post was not even a response to you, actually.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:48 PM   #36
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Default Re: Franchise Players

Jefferson?

which Jefferson?

either way it's 100% no freaking way that Jefferson is on the list of potential franchise players...
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:50 PM   #37
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Default Re: Franchise Players

You're guys definition of a franchise player is messed up



There should be around as many franchise players as there are franchises. You're definition of a franchise player is too strict.


Around the Top 30 players that can be leaders, are all franchise players...
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:55 PM   #38
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Default Re: Franchise Players

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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
Jefferson?

which Jefferson?

either way it's 100% no freaking way that Jefferson is on the list of potential franchise players...
The one who averaged 16/11/1.5 blocks on 51% shooting at age 22.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20[/quote
Around the Top 30 players that can be leaders, are all franchise players...
That means you consider guys who can't even lead to the playoffs to be franchise players.
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Old 08-26-2007, 02:01 PM   #39
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Default Re: Franchise Players

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Originally Posted by adamcz
The one who averaged 16/11/1.5 blocks on 51% shooting at age 22.

He's more of a franchise player than Pierce, who "will never win a title"? What about this year...

Quote:
Quote:
Around the Top 30 players that can be leaders, are all franchise players...
That means you consider guys who can't even lead to the playoffs to be franchise players.

Again, Pierce isn't a franchise player? He carried a bunch of scrubs to the ECF... (Yeah, moreso than Lebron).
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Old 08-26-2007, 02:18 PM   #40
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Default Re: Franchise Players

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Originally Posted by XxNeXuSxX
He's more of a franchise player than Pierce, who "will never win a title"? What about this year...
KG is the elite talent that makes the Celtics a contendor, not Pierce.
Quote:
Again, Pierce isn't a franchise player? He carried a bunch of scrubs to the ECF... (Yeah, moreso than Lebron).
That's very cute.
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Old 08-26-2007, 02:23 PM   #41
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Default Re: Franchise Players

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonterry
Kobe had caron butler and lamar odom and couldnt make the playoffs. that same year Dirk took a completely new mavs team to the 3rd best record.

If I am not mistaken, both caron and lamar were new to the team. and, more importantly, they had a new coach, installing a new system, and then, mid season, the coach quit and Frank Hamblen took over. That team was going thru A LOT. (plus, caron butler was useless and completely lost).
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Old 08-26-2007, 02:25 PM   #42
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Default Re: Franchise Players

Wait, so guys like Arenas/Pierce/Gasol/Brand aren't, but you think Kevin Durant possibly will?

If you look at your list of franchise players/possibles, that equates to you saying that he'll be as good as Bryant/James/Anthony/Wade one day.

If he's better than a prime Paul Pierce I'll be stunned. Which isn't a slam, that's a very good player but admittedly not a franchise player.
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Old 08-26-2007, 02:25 PM   #43
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Default Re: Franchise Players

Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedinpurpleTwo
If I am not mistaken, both caron and lamar were new to the team. and, more importantly, they had a new coach, installing a new system, and then, mid season, the coach quit and Frank Hamblen took over. That team was going thru A LOT. (plus, caron butler was useless and completely lost).

Nah, Caron was good.
Other points are good though.
And they were a solid playoff team before the injuries and Rudy resigning.

Although Kobe is to blame. He had a terrible year for his standards and missed around 20 games himself.
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Old 08-26-2007, 02:25 PM   #44
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Default Re: Franchise Players

Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedinpurpleTwo
If I am not mistaken, both caron and lamar were new to the team. and, more importantly, they had a new coach, installing a new system, and then, mid season, the coach quit and Frank Hamblen took over. That team was going thru A LOT. (plus, caron butler was useless and completely lost).

terry, harris, stackhouse, dampier were all new to the Mavs and josh howard was in his 2nd year. AND there was a midseason coaching change.
the one constant: dirk
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Old 08-26-2007, 02:30 PM   #45
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Default Re: Franchise Players

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
Wait, so guys like Arenas/Pierce/Gasol/Brand aren't, but you think Kevin Durant possibly will?
I'm certainly not the only person in the world who thinks Durant has a chance to be better than Pierce. You think teams were tanking because they thought they had a chance to land the next Arenas??? The three teams who tanked the worst already had the players you mentioned on their rosters!
Quote:
If you look at your list of franchise players/possibles, that equates to you saying that he'll be as good as Bryant/James/Anthony/Wade one day.
It means I believe they have a chance to reach that elite level - certainly not every one of them will. Some of them will be crossed off the list when they get to age 25 or so and it's clear they'll never reach championship level status.
Quote:
If he's better than a prime Paul Pierce I'll be stunned.
We'll you're nearly alone in that belief, but I won't knock you for it.
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