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Old 08-29-2007, 01:57 PM   #31
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Default Re: Pros on team USA

most college 1 and done players won't risk their career for international games.
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Old 08-29-2007, 02:05 PM   #32
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Default Re: Pros on team USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
I'm ready for American football to be introduced as an Olympic sport. How funny would that be. I'm just about positive that my high school alma-mater could win the gold medal (it is one of the greatest high school football teams in the country, but still...).
American football must be one the most boring sports on earth. Moreover, it's almost exclusively played and liked in the US, so I think it's quite unlikely to ever become an olympic sport. I'm not hating on it, i don't really care about it, just giving my opinion.
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Old 08-29-2007, 02:36 PM   #33
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Default Re: Pros on team USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick27
Call me nuts, but I don't think that team, before they were drafted, and with a 2-3 months' work, could win a medal. I think the international landscape is stronger than you give them credit for.
I can say the opposite; you are either giving the international teams too much credit or the NCAA kids not enough.

Am I saying that the NCAA kids would be locks for gold? Of course not. However, they are damn sure good enough to compete.
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Old 08-29-2007, 03:07 PM   #34
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Default Re: Pros on team USA

But, as Mike K. mentioned, the weakening of NCAA Basketball is evident when those players you mention choose to leave college after a single season. That also means the US team is different every season. The argument is that a team of 19-year olds together for 8 weeks will beat a lifelong team of experienced veterans from around the world is laughable.

I don't dispute that the 19-year old college players may be more talented and athletic than the international squads, but they're not likely going to win a medal because they don't have 1.) the experience to compete with all the different looks they'll see, 2.) the maturity to deal with the pressure of the entire world, and 3.) the fundamentals to learn the international game in 8 weeks.
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Old 08-29-2007, 03:15 PM   #35
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Default Re: Pros on team USA

Who on that list that I put up is 19?

More correctly, who was 19 at the time (2004) that group were selected All Americans?
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Old 08-29-2007, 03:38 PM   #36
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Default Re: Pros on team USA

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Originally Posted by Lebowsky
American football must be one the most boring sports on earth. Moreover, it's almost exclusively played and liked in the US, so I think it's quite unlikely to ever become an olympic sport. I'm not hating on it, i don't really care about it, just giving my opinion.
A person is entitled to their opinion. Personally, I think cycling is the most boring and worthless sport in the civilized world, but it is very popular in France. It is also in the Olympics.

Archery is an Olympic sport... that is just chalk full of excitement.

The one sports where the guys roll that chunk of marble and the other guys on the team use brooms to sweep in front of it... Scintillating.

I would just like to see how badly we would destroy every other country. Actually... it would be dangerous. Maybe that is why they don't have it.
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Old 08-29-2007, 03:40 PM   #37
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Default Re: Pros on team USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
A person is entitled to their opinion. Personally, I think cycling is the most boring and worthless sport in the civilized world, but it is very popular in France. It is also in the Olympics.

Archery is an Olympic sport... that is just chalk full of excitement.

The one sports where the guys roll that chunk of marble and the other guys on the team use brooms to sweep in front of it... Scintillating.

I would just like to see how badly we would destroy every other country. Actually... it would be dangerous. Maybe that is why they don't have it.
They don't have it cause almost no one else plays. It would be the US vs Canada and that's about it.
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Old 08-29-2007, 03:45 PM   #38
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Default Re: Pros on team USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da KO King
They don't have it cause almost no one else plays. It would be the US vs Canada and that's about it.
How many curlers do you know?
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Old 08-29-2007, 03:47 PM   #39
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Default Re: Pros on team USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
How many curlers do you know?
Sadly, Curling is more played internationally than American football.
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Old 08-29-2007, 03:49 PM   #40
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Default Re: Pros on team USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da KO King
Who on that list that I put up is 19?

More correctly, who was 19 at the time (2004) that group were selected All Americans?

My point doesn't have to do with their age equaling 19, it has to do with the short-term commitment that NCAA players are able to give. I'd like to hear how you'd deal with my three points about their experience, maturity, and fundamentals. Do you think they're alright in those areas to remain competitive? To medal? Also, would you then require international teams to exclude professional players as well?

Meanwhile, I'll dig up their ages from 2004 for you...
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Old 08-29-2007, 03:54 PM   #41
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Default Re: Pros on team USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick27
My point doesn't have to do with their age equaling 19, it has to do with the short-term commitment that NCAA players are able to give. I'd like to hear how you'd deal with my three points about their experience, maturity, and fundamentals. Do you think they're alright in those areas to remain competitive? To medal? Also, would you then require international teams to exclude professional players as well?
You bring up experience, maturity, and fundamentals yet ignore two things, first that the NBA players also lack these traits, and second that the NBA players care less about the games than NCAA players would.

As for foreign pros, I'm not concerned with them. Vast majority of them are fringe NBA players, at best, so the fact they earn money to play is unimportant to me.
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Old 08-29-2007, 04:06 PM   #42
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Default Re: Pros on team USA

You make some very good arguments. It may be all speculation, but I have some thoughts on what you've said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da KO King
You bring up experience, maturity, and fundamentals yet ignore two things, first that the NBA players also lack these traits, and second that the NBA players care less about the games than NCAA players would.

I think the extra few years in the NBA contribute greatly to experience and maturity. We can use the rookies vs. sophomores game as an example. The reason I feel this is valid is because the players may or may not care about winning, yet they are placed together and must perform without being given any time to prepare. The extra year of immersion in the NBA gives players a better ability to adjust on the fly and to understand the game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rookie_Challenge

As for caring about the games, I don't think there's anything that says that NCAA players automatically care more about winning in the Olympics or World Championships than pro players. I think players' motivations are unique to the player, and Final.Wrath made the point that NCAA players may actually have more to lose because they risk an injury before they win their large contract. Do you have a reason you believe NCAA's best have more motivation than NBA stars?

Quote:
As for foreign pros, I'm not concerned with them. Vast majority of them are fringe NBA players, at best, so the fact they earn money to play is unimportant to me.

The last 3 years, the MVP of the NBA were foreign. Last year's #1 overall pick was foreign. There was a time these were fringe players, but I don't think that argument can be made as strongly going forward. To allow all except the US to use pro players seems like either an unjust handicap or an insult to the international teams.
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Old 08-29-2007, 04:39 PM   #43
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Default Re: Pros on team USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick27
I think the extra few years in the NBA contribute greatly to experience and maturity. We can use the rookies vs. sophomores game as an example....
Rook vs Soph game is irrelevant. You can't use an all star game in which one side clearly cares more than the other side. Go back and look at the games and its fairly obvious which side always cares more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick27
As for caring about the games, I don't think there's anything that says that NCAA players automatically care more about winning in the Olympics or World Championships than pro players. I think players' motivations are unique to the player, and Final.Wrath made the point that NCAA players may actually have more to lose because they risk an injury before they win their large contract. Do you have a reason you believe NCAA's best have more motivation than NBA stars?
Your point about whether or not the NCAA players would care does not hold up either. Players always care about something they earned more than something they were just given. Hell that applies to people in general. Pre-“Dream Team” USA players had to try out for the team. Those that made the roster would cry when they lost. Post-Dream Team they just stand there with the egg on face “my bad” expression.

This is due to the fact that regardless of how much people deny it all these guys view playing in these games as pro bono exhibition games. You just can not tell a guy who earns $5 million a year playing ball you will give him $5 grand over the next two or three months and expect him to take things serious.

As one pro player (overseas) said to me when I spoke to him about it “these cats got earrings that cost more than that”.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick27
The last 3 years, the MVP of the NBA were foreign. Last year's #1 overall pick was foreign. There was a time these were fringe players, but I don't think that argument can be made as strongly going forward. To allow all except the US to use pro players seems like either an unjust handicap or an insult to the international teams.
Your point about the MVP and such is pointless. Andrea Bargnani getting drafted #1 does not change the fact that most National teams are made up of many fringe players. Go get the roster of any International teams and there will be significantly more fringe players than not.
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Old 08-29-2007, 05:08 PM   #44
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Default Re: Pros on team USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da KO King
Your point about whether or not the NCAA players would care does not hold up either. Players always care about something they earned more than something they were just given. Hell that applies to people in general. Pre-“Dream Team” USA players had to try out for the team. Those that made the roster would cry when they lost. Post-Dream Team they just stand there with the egg on face “my bad” expression.

This is due to the fact that regardless of how much people deny it all these guys view playing in these games as pro bono exhibition games. You just can not tell a guy who earns $5 million a year playing ball you will give him $5 grand over the next two or three months and expect him to take things serious.

I'll concede the point about the 'my bad' expression, but I don't think their expression has anything to do with the way they performed. Their expression has to do with the expectations put on them as all-stars in the NBA. Their expression is a defense mechanism they used to deal with falling short of expectations, and didn't come into play until after they lost.

However, the earned vs. given argument doesn't make sense to me. Which players were given spots on the US roster that didn't earn it through proving themselves? It's not as if Mike K. Jr. would get a spot on the team because his dad's coach, right? Of course not. Rather than basing recruiting decisions on a workout or scrimmage, the decisions are based on years of service in the NBA and interviews with the player.

What I will concede is that the Olympics may be the very pinnacle of a 'fringe player's' career, whereas the NBA is generally seen as the highest honor in basketball in the USA. That's actually one area that Colangelo and Mike K. are working to change. That culture of entitlement and the importance of Team USA is changing, and will continue to change if they have their way. You must admit, it's better than '04 so far, right?

Generalization, much like your comment on fringe players. From what we've seen so far from Team USA, these players are trying very hard to win and prove themselves. I'd point to Kobe diving on the ground for a loose ball, when he may have the most to lose (with an injury) out of everyone there because he's in his prime.

It's easy to generalize, but it's not accurate or fair to those players that are playing very hard for their team.

Quote:
Your point about the MVP and such is pointless. Andrea Bargnani getting drafted #1 does not change the fact that most National teams are made up of many fringe players. Go get the roster of any International teams and there will be significantly more fringe players than not.

This is a strange point, because you seem to take fringe players to mean inferior. Yet, you're asking the US to use what you (or perhaps a foreign version of you) would consider fringe players, aka not famous. Perhaps they're only fringe players because they haven't yet joined the NBA for one reason or another? Or perhaps they are good role players that don't make the highlight reel you watch? I don't think it's fair to say they're necessarily worse. Spain won the gold medal with mostly fringe players against some very good competition. Am I incorrect? How do you define a 'fringe player'?
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Old 08-29-2007, 05:17 PM   #45
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Default Re: Pros on team USA

I mean seeing that most of the best players in Europe are American NBA rejects who couldnt stick on a team I don't see why we don't just send them to play in the Olympics. I think the Charlie Bell, Trajan Langdon, and Marcus Fizers of the world both are more talented then most their counterparts while also being used to thei players who they will be competing against.
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