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Old 08-30-2007, 03:33 PM   #1
ReturnOfJimi
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Default Papoose Points

OK. I see all these threads all the time arguing about who is the better player when and all this.

I think the true indicator of great players is how well a player is able to step up and put the team on his back and carry them at any point. The better you carry your team, the better you are.

So, we can kinda throw the stats out and kinda throw out the Big Shot Robs and get down to who REALLY carries their team when it matters (and sometimes, the regular season DOES matter in this regard) to find out who the greatest players are.

That's not to say you can't be a good, championship player without regularly carrying your team. That's also not to say that for brief stretches guys like Horry and Tayshaun Prince don't help carry their team. It's just to say those players are not in the "who's the better player" argument against guys like Barkley or Reggie Miller, who never won rings but regularly had the capability to put a team on their backs.

Kinda works for almost any player by player comparison, IMO. What do you all think?

Last edited by ReturnOfJimi : 08-30-2007 at 03:52 PM. Reason: Cuz this is better
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:39 PM   #2
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Default Re: Carrying a Team on his Back

i think you need to define what it means to carry a team on your back. there has to be some sort of a consistent definition if we're going to use it a measurement of greatness.
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:41 PM   #3
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Default Re: Carrying a Team on his Back

Quote:
i think you need to define what it means to carry a team on your back. there has to be some sort of a consistent definition if we're going to use it a measurement of greatness.
Today 11:33 AM

Well, that's what the debate would then be centered around.

Who's better at carrying their team on their back?

Which is much better than a bunch of clowns trying to say Malone is better than Duncan and Richmond is better than Miller.

Can't deny that.... right?
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: Carrying a Team on his Back

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnOfJimi
Well, that's what the debate would then be centered around.

Who's better at carrying their team on their back?

Which is much better than a bunch of clowns trying to say Malone is better than Duncan and Richmond is better than Miller.

Can't deny that.... right?
i guess, but it might just come down to:

"yes malone carried that team on his back!"
"no he didn't."
"yu-huh."
"nu-hu!"
"yu-huh!" etc. until our eyes explode.

if we knew what it meant to carry a team on your back we could at least have reference point to argue why malone was or was not good at carrying his team on his back.
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:50 PM   #5
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Default Re: Carrying a Team on his Back

Quote:
"yes malone carried that team on his back!"
"no he didn't."
"yu-huh."
"nu-hu!"
"yu-huh!" etc. until our eyes explode.

There were times when Malone carried the Jazz but Stockton did it even more regularly, IMO, when it mattered.

..and there were short term instances where Malone needed to come through with some serious papoose action and blew it.

So, Malone gets lots of back-carrying points, but not as many as Barkley could get for those bum Sixers teams or even in PHX. Barkley had a good cast in PHX but he was CLEARLY the leader and control taker of the team.

I think we need to devise a hypothetical, non-quantified term like...

"Papoose Points"

I give Barkley a few more Papoose Points than Malone but Malone had a longer, more consistent career statistically and conditioning-wise.
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:56 PM   #6
lawlerslaw100
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Thumbs down Re: Carrying a Team on his Back

No one player even Ms Bryant or the God of the Game MJ can carry
the team on his back. He needs help from teammates. Look at
the dynasties of game and you see my point. All of them were
teams. The 60s and 80s Cs, the 80s, 90s Pistons,
the current Spurs, the 90s Bulls, and the Fakers of the 00s.
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:59 PM   #7
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Default Re: Carrying a Team on his Back

I agree with this. That's why it was so hard for me in the pg thread. I think AI is the obvious guy as far as carrying a team. Able to make the big play, win a game on his own, cause disruption defensively with his steals and quickness. Make big plays passing the ball. Create fastbreaks out of nothing. And why I said Nash is the last guy I'd choose, I don't think you can just stick him on any old team and his stats stay relatively the same or his impact felt.

But still it depends on the team.
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Old 08-30-2007, 03:59 PM   #8
ReturnOfJimi
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Default Re: Carrying a Team on his Back

Quote:
No one player even Ms Bryant or the God of the Game MJ can carry
the team on his back. He needs help from teammates. Look at
the dynasties of game and you see my point. All of them were
teams. The 60s and 80s Cs, the 80s, 90s Pistons,
the current Spurs, the 90s Bulls, and the Fakers of the 00s.

The role players and lesser stars always seem to follow the lead of the Carrier(s).
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Old 08-30-2007, 04:03 PM   #9
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Default Re: Carrying a Team on his Back

Quote:
And why I said Nash is the last guy I'd choose, I don't think you can just stick him on any old team and his stats stay relatively the same or his impact felt.

I'd say when Stoudamire went out we got a real chance to see how Nash carries teams.

He did it quite well, at least for the regular season. Not bad in the playoffs, either.

Now, Nash is the central carrier of the team. Everyone else just plays around him. Stoudamire has Papoose Pt. stretches, but not as much as the pre-injury Spurs series when he was carrying them (the game with the block on Duncan, I don't know where the rest of the Suns were in that series, cuz Amare was a beast and the team got shutdown overall... that's where Nash lost some Papoose Pts.)
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Old 08-30-2007, 05:56 PM   #10
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Default Re: Carrying a Team on his Back

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawlerslaw100
No one player even Ms Bryant or the God of the Game MJ can carry
the team on his back. He needs help from teammates. Look at
the dynasties of game and you see my point. All of them were
teams. The 60s and 80s Cs, the 80s, 90s Pistons,
the current Spurs, the 90s Bulls, and the Fakers of the 00s.

Amen.
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Old 08-30-2007, 06:19 PM   #11
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Default Re: Carrying a Team on his Back

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnOfJimi
I'd say when Stoudamire went out we got a real chance to see how Nash carries teams.

He did it quite well, at least for the regular season. Not bad in the playoffs, either.

Now, Nash is the central carrier of the team. Everyone else just plays around him. Stoudamire has Papoose Pt. stretches, but not as much as the pre-injury Spurs series when he was carrying them (the game with the block on Duncan, I don't know where the rest of the Suns were in that series, cuz Amare was a beast and the team got shutdown overall... that's where Nash lost some Papoose Pts.)

Nash is definately their best player... Yet even without Amare they have/had a great offensive lineup, a lineup that any good pure pg would've done well with. Not stick him in what was Iverson's situation or Kobe's current situation...hell even Kidd's

Last edited by Y2Gezee : 08-30-2007 at 06:53 PM.
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