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Old 09-07-2007, 07:13 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by RainierBeachPoet
my personal opinion: i think that there are women who are gifted and called to serve the church in a priestly capacity and cannot because of our rule

rome's bent goes something like this: men and women are different and play different roles of service within the church. men and women share the inherent dignity of being a daughter or son of God

Jesus chose men to be apostles and at the last supper shared this with men only. the heart of the sacramental priesthood is the institution of the Eucharist. since only men were there, jesus mandate was that men can preside at the eucharist
i believe that there was also a scriptural basis for only men presiding but i cant think of it right now

the counter argument is that it was a patriarchal society-- of course it was only men. but it doesnt have to continue that way.

in my limited understanding, there needs to be a new scriptural basis of a change and then the will.

as a universal church, these kind of changes can come slow because there are many cultural that would not accept women priests.

many in rome just see this as a liberal u.s. movement and so many do not take it seriously. the u.s. is always seen suspiciously because we are a world power


there is more to this discussion but these are what come to mind at the moment.

That is something of debate. Mary Magdelene is believed to have been an apostle, even has a written gospel although not cannonized. The church believed oppressing the history of this to be vital to their existance. I think it ironic that they want to spread the word of God, and send women as subserviant nuns into the remote wilds of the world to do so, but not regonize them as some one who may lead a church.
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Old 09-07-2007, 07:37 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by lurch67
That is something of debate. Mary Magdelene is believed to have been an apostle, even has a written gospel although not cannonized. The church believed oppressing the history of this to be vital to their existance. I think it ironic that they want to spread the word of God, and send women as subserviant nuns into the remote wilds of the world to do so, but not regonize them as some one who may lead a church.

in the lists of apostles in the gospels, mary m does not appear although she was the first to the tomb on the third day

the conspiracy theories dont hold water. that would presuppose that there was some sort of central organization in the early church--- there simply wasnt.

it can be best explained that it was a society where men and women were not seen as equal

where it stands today is that equality doesnt not mean that everyone can do everything

by the way, women actually do run the church as many men have opted out of various leadership roles.

i dont know of people who put down sisters/nuns the way you described. they are highly respected as leaders; they just have a different roles then to administer the sacraments

in fact, there are some feminists who would say that it would be wrong for women to enter into the hierarchical nature of the church because its structure is inherently sinful and a different structure that would reflect a more inclusive leadership is needed
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Old 09-07-2007, 07:40 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by mlh1981
Going through high school, I used to live in a small town in the deep south. Very conservative town. If you didn't go to the main baptist church in town, people thought that there was something wrong with you. You were "shunned" and looked down on. It seemed to be an oppressive force. I believe in a higher being, and that there are certain things that you need to do with your life from a moral standpoint to stay in the good graces. HOWEVER, the christian conservative lifestyle just seems really rigid--and somewhat hypocritical. People smoke, drank, cursed, etc, but as long as they showed up to church on Sunday and asked for forgiveness, then all was ok. I believe that good, slightly more middle-of-the-road Christians are less hypocritical, more accepting of diversity, and less likely to jam the "churchy stuff" down your throat. Jesus Christ was all about reaching out to his fellow man. Bible belt Christians are the exact opposite, at least the ones I met. They aren't truly following his teaching. They are following this book, this book made by men, to a rigid tee. The bible teaches some good thing, but some people take the whole thing literally, and it's not realistic in the 21st century to adhere to every single teaching.

christianity does take the forms of the society/culture that it finds itself in. being a southern baptist in georgia is different from being a catholic in san francisco
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Old 09-07-2007, 07:43 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierBeachPoet
in the lists of apostles in the gospels, mary m does not appear although she was the first to the tomb on the third day

the conspiracy theories dont hold water. that would presuppose that there was some sort of central organization in the early church--- there simply wasnt.

it can be best explained that it was a society where men and women were not seen as equal

where it stands today is that equality doesnt not mean that everyone can do everything

by the way, women actually do run the church as many men have opted out of various leadership roles.

i dont know of people who put down sisters/nuns the way you described. they are highly respected as leaders; they just have a different roles then to administer the sacraments

in fact, there are some feminists who would say that it would be wrong for women to enter into the hierarchical nature of the church because its structure is inherently sinful and a different structure that would reflect a more inclusive leadership is needed

Not a conspiracy. They have found the Gospel of Mary Magdelene. That's why the church reversed their stance on her being a prostitute. Of course she didn't appear as an apostle, her Gospel was withheld by Constatine when the bible was decided on.

And of course there was organization prior to the church. Other wise how would we have the Orthadox Segments?
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Old 09-07-2007, 07:44 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by lurch67
I have a view similar to Randy that there is always a chance that a God does exist. Thats why I do look for proof, but every shred of evidence that I've seen is able to be explained through science and logic. My own nature is to question first, study second, and believe last.
I actually envy people who can take a leap of faith and believe in a higher power. But more and more I get the feeling people only go to church because they fear damnation, not because of their love of God. Oddly enough, in my area, the people who go to church are some of the worst citizens. I guess it makes them sleep better at night knowing if they repent Sunday, they can be as immoral as they want to be the rest of the week.
I do realize that religion has shaped the world, this country, and the laws used to govern it, but I feel the time for it to end is near. People shouldn't have to fear God to live moral lives. The world has changed and it is time to move on as a society.

unfortunately, there are some people who prey on people's fear as a way to motivate them to be christian and go to church.

if fear is the only thing one's faith is based upon, it will always be lacking

to follow jesus as the christ out of love is the ideal. to unpack what this means is the journey of faith
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Old 09-07-2007, 07:53 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by gb8
I would like to know why you are catholic in this case? Reading from your responses it appears that you are not akin to claiming that the bible is the true word of god. Why not be a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Sikh?

my point about interpretation is from the christian perspective. any knowledgeable christian will claim the importance of the scriptures as the word of God. we give it authority in our lives as a means of how God reveals Godself to us.

but also important is to ask: who will i trust to interpret these scriptures? if i only trust myself when i read and try to understand the bible, i am not going to get very far as i as an individual am very limited in knowledge and understanding

if i dont ask this question, i could be following some whacked out interpretations (for example, the end of the world is coming next week) of the bible and be subject to a form of brainwashing that isnt good

my own bent is: if the bible is the only source of revelation and if there is a distrust of the intellectual developments that have occured over the past 2,000 years, one's christianity can be superficial, distrustful of the good in the world, limited in scope, and/or narrowminded
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Old 09-07-2007, 07:58 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Randy
As of right now, I'm an Agnostic Atheist, I leave the possibility of a supreme being open but it seems unlikely to me.

Of course, I am always open to new ways of thinking and using logic though. I won't be the person to look at pictures of galaxies and say, "Oh, look how beautiful it is, that must be god" or any similar statement. The natural, scientific explanations for the formation and evolution of our universe is beautiful and complex enough that I don't see why it has to be the work of a god and not nature. That said, my beliefs are always shifting. Just a few months ago I was militant Atheist but I've let some of that go.

RBP has also diagnosed me as a searcher, the only problem is that the idea of a God is so complex, I don't think the human mind can truly comprehend it.

and i dont even charge for diagnosing!!!!:)

if we believe God is ultimately a mystery, then by definition we will never fully understand the complexity of God. and yes-- our limited human minds cannot comprehend it all

but that isnt to say we cannot revel and be amazed by this mystery. to me that is one of the great things about faith--- grace

if you have never looked into the book of job, that is what it is all about: who are we in front of this mystery we call God and what is the place of our human suffering as we search
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Old 09-07-2007, 07:59 PM   #38
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What do you mean when you say that? If God was proven wrong, would you commit suicide? To me, that's what I think people would do.

it is impossible to prove that something doesnt exist
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:06 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by lurch67
Not a conspiracy. They have found the Gospel of Mary Magdelene. That's why the church reversed their stance on her being a prostitute. Of course she didn't appear as an apostle, her Gospel was withheld by Constatine when the bible was decided on.

And of course there was organization prior to the church. Other wise how would we have the Orthadox Segments?

there were many "gospels" (mary, peter, thomas and others). but they were not part of the early church's experience of the risen christ-- or they were lost

the early church (from after jesus' death in about 30 ad until constantine) was a persecuted church. the early christians lived in fear of death because of the roman persecutions. the leadership of the church was far from uniform and still coming to birth

i do not know much of the development of the orthodox church. suffice to say it was a different expression of christianity outside of roman culture. orthodox theology is their prayer and has a rich history. i wish i could comment intelligently on it but i am not well read in it
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:21 PM   #40
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Are you serious? How about improving current conditions instead focusing on something that supposedly happens after you die. We should all hope for something better in THIS life, for ourselves and the generations. I hope we can find a way to reverse or slow global warming, I hope to eliminate our dependancy on foreign oil, I hope for an end to middle eastern conflicts, etc etc.

To say that this life is "pathetic" shows nothing but flawed ignorance and naivety on your part. Life is beautiful, this may be the only one you get so do something grand with it rather than dismiss it as "pathetic"; what horrible pessimism.

Sorry, but I don't see it the way you do. Yeah, I can hope for things in this life, but what's the point? It would be very difficult for me to live, knowing that when all is said and done, I'll just be rotting 10 feet under the ground.

I put my hope in things eternal, not in things that are of this world.
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:24 PM   #41
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What do you mean when you say that? If God was proven wrong, would you commit suicide? To me, that's what I think people would do.

Obviously I wouldn't commit suicide.
But it would be harder to do the little things in life, as well as the big things, if I knew God didn't exist.

Even something as little as, picking up someone else's garbage when no one's looking, is something I normally do but would stop if there was no God.

I would walk around and roam the rest of my years living as if I was defeated, because for me, my purpose here on Earth is to live for God, not for myself. I would have no purpose in life, making it very difficult.
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:27 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierBeachPoet
my point about interpretation is from the christian perspective. any knowledgeable christian will claim the importance of the scriptures as the word of God. we give it authority in our lives as a means of how God reveals Godself to us.

but also important is to ask: who will i trust to interpret these scriptures? if i only trust myself when i read and try to understand the bible, i am not going to get very far as i as an individual am very limited in knowledge and understanding

if i dont ask this question, i could be following some whacked out interpretations (for example, the end of the world is coming next week) of the bible and be subject to a form of brainwashing that isnt good

my own bent is: if the bible is the only source of revelation and if there is a distrust of the intellectual developments that have occured over the past 2,000 years, one's christianity can be superficial, distrustful of the good in the world, limited in scope, and/or narrowminded

I am all for interpretation but there's only so far something like that can fly. For instant there are clear calls for genocide which cant be ignored or interpreted any other way apart from what they actually are. Also how does one interpret the rules which are described in keeping slaves? I think it is narrow minded to say that the scriptures do not contain within them values which by todays moral standards are down right evil. If this is the true word of the eternal God then surely his words are designed for all times.
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:29 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Penny37
Obviously I wouldn't commit suicide.
But it would be harder to do the little things in life, as well as the big things, if I knew God didn't exist.

Even something as little as, picking up someone else's garbage when no one's looking, is something I normally do but would stop if there was no God.

I would walk around and roam the rest of my years living as if I was defeated, because for me, my purpose here on Earth is to live for God, not for myself. I would have no purpose in life, making it very difficult.

That's pretty germly. What happened to having love for your fellow man and improving the world for humanity's sake.
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:21 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by mlh1981
I have always wondered how the concept of heaven/hell is introduced to children. It just seems extremely harsh to take a small child aside and tell them that if they don't obey God and live according to the word, that they are gonna burn in hell forever in their afterlife. I mean, how do you break this kind of news to a child?

this would be an terrible way to teach a child who God is
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:26 PM   #45
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Default Re: chardin and unity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
Are you serious? How about improving current conditions instead focusing on something that supposedly happens after you die. We should all hope for something better in THIS life, for ourselves and the generations. I hope we can find a way to reverse or slow global warming, I hope to eliminate our dependancy on foreign oil, I hope for an end to middle eastern conflicts, etc etc.

To say that this life is "pathetic" shows nothing but flawed ignorance and naivety on your part. Life is beautiful, this may be the only one you get so do something grand with it rather than dismiss it as "pathetic"; what horrible pessimism.

if one lives faith well, it very much affects how life is lived in the here and now! living life to the fullest!!!

i believe that one role of a christian in the world is to point out the good the true and the beautiful aspects of our world here and now
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