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Old 09-09-2007, 02:48 PM   #1
Blue&Orange
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Default Isiah Thomas

I've been kind of a Isiah defender, not because i'm thrilled with him, but because i think most of the bashing he receives isn't fair, said that i think that this is a decisive year, there's no more excuses, if the Knicks don't perform i think it would be time to change things.

But...

Now:
Renaldo Balkman, Wilson Chandler, Mardy Collins, Jamal Crawford, Eddy Curry, David Lee, Stephon Marbury, Randolph Morris, Demetris Nichols, Zach Randolph, Quentin Richardson, Nate Robinson, Malik Rose, Jared Jeffries, Jerome James, Fred Jones, Dan Dickau.

Then:
Houston, McDyess, Van Horn, Anderson, Ward, Eisley, Weatherspoon, KThomas, Mutombo, Harrington, Sweetney, Doleac, Williams, Lampe, Vranes

Nigh and day i think, in terms of talent and youth.
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Old 09-09-2007, 07:58 PM   #2
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Default Re: Isiah Thomas

I have defended thomas too, but he has made some big mistakes.


a) coaching (firing cheney, hiring wilkins, "firing" wikins, herb, then brown now him.. he gets an F here.

b) he has made some bad trades .. topped off by francis and jalen rose .. i know they blame brown but dumars wouldnt have made those trades. the only way he gets a pass here is if dolan pressed him to make the trades over his objections.

b+) Kieth van horn trade

I think most of his trades and his drafts hav been excellent though, so i say he gets a couple more years.


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Old 09-09-2007, 11:25 PM   #3
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Default Re: Isiah Thomas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue&Orange
I've been kind of a Isiah defender, not because i'm thrilled with him, but because i think most of the bashing he receives isn't fair, said that i think that this is a decisive year, there's no more excuses, if the Knicks don't perform i think it would be time to change things.

But...

Now:
Renaldo Balkman, Wilson Chandler, Mardy Collins, Jamal Crawford, Eddy Curry, David Lee, Stephon Marbury, Randolph Morris, Demetris Nichols, Zach Randolph, Quentin Richardson, Nate Robinson, Malik Rose, Jared Jeffries, Jerome James, Fred Jones, Dan Dickau.

Then:
Houston, McDyess, Van Horn, Anderson, Ward, Eisley, Weatherspoon, KThomas, Mutombo, Harrington, Sweetney, Doleac, Williams, Lampe, Vranes

Nigh and day i think, in terms of talent and youth.

I will say that is a night and day mix.

Zeke has been a very good drafter, a relatively bad trader.

Perhaps Zach Randolph can help erase some of Zeke's bad deals...
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:06 AM   #4
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Default Re: Isiah Thomas

I hated his guts when he first traded Frank Williams. Also, Mutombo, McDyess, and Van Horn. If I remember correctly, when the Knicks started Mutombo, McDyess, Van Horn, Houston and Williams, the team was on a 3 game winning streak. They were looking GREAT. Williams was really young but he had great potential. After he seperated everyone, I hated him. If he had only waited at least a week he sure as hell would not have made the trade because the Knicks would have still been on a winning streak.
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:42 AM   #5
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Default Re: Isiah Thomas

He did some bad trades that got us some draft picks, Jalen Rose trade it's one example.
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:43 AM   #6
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Default Re: Isiah Thomas

Quote:
Originally Posted by gencbiba
I hated his guts when he first traded Frank Williams. Also, Mutombo, McDyess, and Van Horn. If I remember correctly, when the Knicks started Mutombo, McDyess, Van Horn, Houston and Williams, the team was on a 3 game winning streak. They were looking GREAT. Williams was really young but he had great potential. After he seperated everyone, I hated him. If he had only waited at least a week he sure as hell would not have made the trade because the Knicks would have still been on a winning streak.
Yeah, cause Frank Williams is tearing the league up.
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Old 09-10-2007, 04:11 PM   #7
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Default Re: Isiah Thomas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue&Orange
Now:
Renaldo Balkman, Wilson Chandler, Mardy Collins, Jamal Crawford, Eddy Curry, David Lee, Stephon Marbury, Randolph Morris, Demetris Nichols, Zach Randolph, Quentin Richardson, Nate Robinson, Malik Rose, Jared Jeffries, Jerome James, Fred Jones, Dan Dickau.

Then:
Houston, McDyess, Van Horn, Anderson, Ward, Eisley, Weatherspoon, KThomas, Mutombo, Harrington, Sweetney, Doleac, Williams, Lampe, Vranes

Nigh and day i think, in terms of talent and youth.

What is lost in the trasnaltion of your now and then analysis is the missed opportunities caused by I.T.'s management.

The Marbury-Penny trade allowed Phx to clear the cap space to go an buy Nash -- i.e. had we followed Phx's model, we could've had nash - instead we got Marb and Penny.

The summer before Curry-James, we were exactly 2 years away from being uner the cap. 2 Years. Had we not signed James or traded for curry, we could've had 2 excellent picks (assuming we played worse than we did overthose two years) and had some combination of 2 of Roy-Alrdridge-Thomas and Conley-Oden-Durant-Hoford AND room under the cap this year and even more for next.

Instead we traded for Rose, Francis et. al. and are even further from the cap and draft choices.

yes, he has drafted alright, considering we have always had low picks, but he could've maneuvered us to higher picks.

IT has ben bad.
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Old 09-10-2007, 04:20 PM   #8
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Default Re: Isiah Thomas

First of all no way we would have gotten Nash we were like 40 million over the cap.

Seconds thats alot of ifs in hind sight. And noone knew Brown would tank the team the way he did for a season.

I think my biggest knock on signing brown, is that they shouldnt have paid him that much money. If thisis his dream job, he didnt have to break teh bank to get him. They basically did an allan houston (100 million dollar) job bidding against themselves to get him.

Lastly, w/ the Eddie curry deal. The bulls basically got sweetney, tyrus thomas, and Noah for Eddie and Chandler. That deal does not sound that bad to me. Sweetney may not even be in the league in a couple years. Eddie is better than Tyrus Thomas, and Noone knows who will be better chandler or noah. Lets stop killin thomas for teh Eddie trade, it worked out ALMOST as bad as it could have possibly worked out (giving up two lottery pics including a #2 pick) and we still may have gotten the better of the deal.


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Old 09-10-2007, 04:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: Isiah Thomas

Quote:
Originally Posted by cangoods
First of all no way we would have gotten Nash we were like 40 million over the cap.

We most certainly we not. The contracts we traded to Phx helped them under - and the ones we took on put us further over. Was it enough; would Nash have come -- that's hard ot know -- but taking on Penny's deal was awful considering everyone knew how banged up he was -- and no otherteam in the league was interested.

In fact, phx was offering around a Marb-Penny deal for a full year before the Knicks bit. Nobody was interested -- everyone stil lwanted Marb, but not at the expense of Penny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cangoods
Seconds thats alot of ifs in hind sight. And noone knew Brown would tank the team the way he did for a season.

How is it hindsight? In summer 04-2005 it was clear that in 2 years a ton of contracts were clearing. It was also very clear that the Knicks were not very good...the only thing that gave us hopewas that Brown/Curry would somehow save the day -- and do it quickly. Why would anyone, besides the most optimistic Knicks fan beleivethat? The team was imbalanced and bad...and the addition of Curry/Brown wasn't going to bring any mroe balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cangoods
Lastly, w/ the Eddie curry deal. The bulls basically got sweetney, tyrus thomas, and Noah for Eddie and Chandler. That deal does not sound that bad to me. Sweetney may not even be in the league in a couple years. Eddie is better than Tyrus Thomas, and Noone knows who will be better chandler or noah. Lets stop killin thomas for teh Eddie trade, it worked out ALMOST as bad as it could have possibly worked out (giving up two lottery pics including a #2 pick) and we still may have gotten the better of the deal.

Well, you analyza it as though Curry had no impact on the Knicks lottery chances - or that you've found the last 2 yearas to be successful. Assuming Curry added even 2 wins per year, without him the KNicks would've been in as good a position as Port without him.

So, no, the deal wasn't a windfall for Chicag, because of the moderate success (and moderate is the kindest term) of the Knicks and the weakness of the 2006 draft - but it was not a win for NY - because the K could've been so much worse and gotten picks that were so much better.

Also, in analyzing he Curry deal, we were at 38&44 the year before Curry and now 2 years later the same 38-44.
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