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Old 09-26-2007, 11:32 PM   #1
dd24
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Default Trade Idea

With the Shawn Marion rumors I figured I would mess around with the trade generator to see what would be reasonable and this worked:

Detroit Gets: Shawn Marion

Phoenix Gets: Antonio McDyess, Nazr Mohammed, Jason Maxiell, and Sammy Meija

That would give Detroit a starting five of Billup, Hamilton, Prince, Marion, and Wallace. With Amir Johnson coming off the bench if they could sign another veteran guy down low that would be a solid team. Phoenix gets a solid 6th man in McDyess that would probably fit in well in Phoenix and a promising young guy in Maxiell. I'm not sure I'm sold myself on this but I just figured I would spark some conversation. I think Detroit really needs to do something to get over that really good ball club hurdle and get to elite status. We know they will be a very good team in the East but we aren't certain about anything else. Heck Cleveland upset us last year and we haven't made too many changes thus far. What does everybody think? Should Detroit look into this? It's not too often all-stars come available of which they may have a shot at.
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Old 09-27-2007, 03:00 AM   #2
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Default Re: Trade Idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by dd24
With the Shawn Marion rumors I figured I would mess around with the trade generator to see what would be reasonable and this worked:

Detroit Gets: Shawn Marion

Phoenix Gets: Antonio McDyess, Nazr Mohammed, Jason Maxiell, and Sammy Meija

That would give Detroit a starting five of Billup, Hamilton, Prince, Marion, and Wallace. With Amir Johnson coming off the bench if they could sign another veteran guy down low that would be a solid team. Phoenix gets a solid 6th man in McDyess that would probably fit in well in Phoenix and a promising young guy in Maxiell. I'm not sure I'm sold myself on this but I just figured I would spark some conversation. I think Detroit really needs to do something to get over that really good ball club hurdle and get to elite status. We know they will be a very good team in the East but we aren't certain about anything else. Heck Cleveland upset us last year and we haven't made too many changes thus far. What does everybody think? Should Detroit look into this? It's not too often all-stars come available of which they may have a shot at.

McDyess would be a GREAT addition to the Suns, but I think they'd have to throw in Prince for it to work
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Old 09-27-2007, 07:40 AM   #3
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Default Re: Trade Idea

There's no way the Pistons would trade Prince though. He'll be a Piston for life. IMO Prince > Marion.
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Old 09-27-2007, 12:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: Trade Idea

I really like Prince's game, but I know that at his peak, Prince will be equal to Marion, plus maybe a block per game. Marion is a great player, and I think Phoenix can get much more for him than we can offer. I was pushing for Camby in a different thread, whom I think is a better fit on the Pistons (and will require about the same in trade value).

With your trade idea, we lose 3 bigs and are left with Marion, Wallace, and Johnson as our only frontcourt. We'd have to find somebody else lying around (Webber, Dale Davis) that could play 20mpg to fill the void left by trading those 3. Also, Wallace would have to play center, which I've heard he doesn't like.

If you like Prince, we don't need Marion.
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Old 09-27-2007, 04:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: Trade Idea

Quote:
I really like Prince's game, but I know that at his peak, Prince will be equal to Marion, plus maybe a block per game.
Are you insane? Prince is 27, only 2 years younger than Marion. At the same age, Marion had already posted 5 season of 17+ ppg (4 of 19+), 5 seasons with 9+ rpg, and 5 seasons w/ 1+bpg and 1.7+spg [and don't give me any "playing w/nash" crap, he had only played 1 of the seasons I'm counting w/ nash]. Prince has NEVER reached any of those totals even once. He is already in his prime, this is it right now and for the next 3-5 years. He has shown no real improvement the last 3 years, clearly leveling out. How in the hell do you think he's going to suddenly make HUGE improvements in his all-around game, including quadrupling his block numbers? (and thats what it would take for Prince's career .6bpg to be a full block higher than Marion's career 1.3bpg)

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Prince fan. In my long list of potential trades sending Marion to the East, I endorsed Marion for Prince and McDyess as my favorite. The fact is, what you see now is what you get. He is no longer a young player on the rise.

Last edited by Manphibian420 : 09-27-2007 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 09-27-2007, 06:31 PM   #6
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Default Re: Trade Idea

Prince could definately score more if he had the opportunity. He's a better defender than Marion without a doubt. In a team setting like Detroit Prince fits in perfect which is why I would hate to see him go. I agree about the Camby thing (I think I may have posted in that thread too). But in case that idea didn't get pursued I just wanted to stir the pot a bit with the Marion suggestion. I do think the Pistons need to pursue somebody but I would like to see it done without them giving up Prince.
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Old 09-27-2007, 07:49 PM   #7
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Default Re: Trade Idea

Quote:
I do think the Pistons need to pursue somebody but I would like to see it done without them giving up Prince.
Well, if Marion is the guy you're wanting to add, either Prince (with McDyess) or Sheed would have to be headed to PHX. Plenty of teams can offer equal or better packages of role-players than the one you presented, and I'm not sure that trade makes sense for either team anyway.

Quote:
Prince could definately score more if he had the opportunity.
I agree that Prince would score more in a different situation (he'd set a career high w/ PHX for sure, but 15ppg would be a career high...), but Marion was a 20+ PPG scorer long before Nash and D'Antoni arrived and made the Suns the most uptempo team around. He would be the better all-around scorer no matter what situations they are in.
Quote:
He's a better defender than Marion without a doubt.
Prince MAY be a better defender than Marion, but there is certainly some doubt. Prince is better 1v1, but Marion makes a much bigger impact in the team defensive game. For some reason you seem to think Prince is a better shotblocker (expecting him to block a shot more than Marion at his peak), but the fact is Marion blocks about twice as many shots per game and gets twice as many steals. Stats alone can't measure D, but watching Marion play you see that the stats don't even indicate exactly how much he does as a team defender, being seemingly all over the floor at once.

Last edited by Manphibian420 : 09-27-2007 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 09-27-2007, 08:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: Trade Idea

I can see why a Phoenix fan wants a big name player but the whole reason Marion wants to be traded is because he isn't going to get the money he wants. You can't bring in someone else who is going to command a big contract. Which is why I set up the trade that way. One of the worst parts about the NBA is they don't trade talent for talent. They trade salary for salary. Kirilenko has too big of a contract for Phoenix so I don't see that working. I see the Heat are interested but they don't have much to give up either. Maybe the Knicks could try to throw together another deal but they already have a starting PF and C. I see the Odom rumors but I'm not sure if that makes sense for either team. Who did the Wolves get for KG? Jefferson and a whole bunch of other players probably most guys couldn't name. KG is a million times the player Marion is. Who did the Lakers get for Shaq? Odom and players nobody remembers. Shaq is a million times the player Marion is. I was looking at it from the stand point of if other superstars can get traded for pretty much nothing, an all-star 3rd option on a team could probably get traded for even less talent.
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Old 09-27-2007, 08:59 PM   #9
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Default Re: Trade Idea

Quote:
I can see why a Phoenix fan wants a big name player but the whole reason Marion wants to be traded is because he isn't going to get the money he wants. You can't bring in someone else who is going to command a big contract.
The trades I suggest don't bring a large contract back. Prince makes half as much as Marion and won't be able to demand a large extension for 4 years. Taking his contract back is WAY better for PHX than taking the contract of Nazr. Sheed's contract has only 2 years on it and is 5 mil a year cheaper, a big discount with no long term commitment.
Also, I bolded "big name player" because I find it laughable you think Prince fits that description. As I've already said, I'm a fan of his, but he is at absolute best a borderline All-Star
Quote:
Who did the Wolves get for KG? Jefferson and a whole bunch of other players probably most guys couldn't name.
Quote:
Who did the Lakers get for Shaq? Odom and players nobody remembers.
Quote:
I was looking at it from the stand point of if other superstars can get traded for pretty much nothing, an all-star 3rd option on a team could probably get traded for even less talent.
Yes, he will bring less talent, but the deal you made up offers virtually NO talent the Suns are interested in. McDyess is decent, but PHX could have kept him 3 years ago (and needed big guys even more at the time) and chose to give Q a big contract instead. Nazr is overpaid and doesn't fit the Suns style. Maxiel is a decent young talent, but he is less proven and therefor valuable than guys like Gomes and GGreen, those "other guys" in the KG trade. Also, Al Jefferson (a guy most view as a future All-Star big guy) has TONS more value than a guy like Prince. Shaq was traded for Odom and Caron Butler, a guy I think a few people remember. Either one of them is a more valuable player than Prince.
The Suns are already getting back a lot less talent in a Prince/Mcdyess package than those other superstars were traded for. You are not looking at it with the Suns getting less talent, you are looking at it with the Suns making a pure salary dump, and really not getting a great package for that type of deal anyway (since they have to take back Nazr). They want to save some money, but they want something close to fair value not just a pure salary dump. Saving 8 mil a year on Prince vs Marion is MORE than enough savings. Sheed's contract also represents a good amount of short term savings (more than enough to drop us below the luxury tax line) without hindering our long term cap.

Last edited by Manphibian420 : 09-27-2007 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 09-27-2007, 09:07 PM   #10
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Default Re: Trade Idea

Quote:
whole reason Marion wants to be traded is because he isn't going to get the money he wants
This is false. Money is certainly part of the reason, and the Suns refusing to just hand him a 3yr/60 mil extension may have been the last straw, but in no way is that the WHOLE REASON. There is a lot going on with Marion and to think you can simplify the situation to it being purely about the extension is foolish. Jack McCallum, who spent a whole year with the Suns to write a book and has a unique level of insight on the situation, wrote a good article about it on si.com today;
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ion/index.html

Also, the Suns not wanting to give their 3rd best player 20mil a year (making him one of the highest payed players in the league) doesn't mean they aren't willing to give away a contract 60% that size
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Old 09-28-2007, 09:09 AM   #11
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Default Re: Trade Idea

Manphibian420 is right, and I was wrong about Prince's blocks. I underestimated his blocks because they seem so impactful when he does them.

That aside, I wouldn't trade Prince for Marion straight up because of the contract difference. If money were no object, it'd be a much better trade. However, Prince doesn't have the baggage that Marion does, and he is (less than) two years younger. Prince is a roleplayer and he knows it. Marion is a roleplayer that thinks he's a superstar. Prince has a ring. Marion doesn't, but has eaten up a much higher percentage of his team's cap.
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Old 09-28-2007, 11:02 PM   #12
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Default Re: Trade Idea

no way would I want to do this. Giving up too much in terms of big man depth to start two sfs?

The comment about 15 ppg being a career max for prince on the suns .... isnt that his average from last year?
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Old 09-28-2007, 11:07 PM   #13
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Default Re: Trade Idea

I didn't say it would be his max; I said he would surely set a career high scoring on the Suns, but that isn't saying a whole lot because 15ppg would be a career high. His scoring average has been 14.something the last few years
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Old 09-29-2007, 12:38 PM   #14
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Default Re: Trade Idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by BankShot
McDyess would be a GREAT addition to the Suns, but I think they'd have to throw in Prince for it to work

i agree... Maxiell's the only player with upside in that trade... Marion is a proven talent and McDyess is like almost retired... Prince, Mohd and Dice for Matrix...
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