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Old 07-20-2006, 06:25 PM   #16
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And to continue...

Though Kidd was great at turning around teams...

Payton has been more a "winner"



Kidd:

10 Playoff Appearances
4 50-59 Win Teams
0 60+ Win Teams
2 NBA Finals
0 Championships

Payton;

14 Playoff Appearances
5 50-59 Win Teams
3 60+ Win Teams
3 NBA Finals
1 Championship



So obviously Payton has done way more winning than Kidd
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Old 07-20-2006, 06:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
And to continue...

Though Kidd was great at turning around teams...

Payton has been more a "winner"



Kidd:

10 Playoff Appearances
4 50-59 Win Teams
0 60+ Win Teams
2 NBA Finals
0 Championships

Payton;

14 Playoff Appearances
5 50-59 Win Teams
3 60+ Win Teams
3 NBA Finals
1 Championship



So obviously Payton has done way more winning than Kidd

Payton had better teams
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Old 07-20-2006, 06:44 PM   #18
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GP was real damn good during his prime with his crazy defense and scoring ability. He is good at attacking the basket. But Kidd is another level. Kidd is the best passer in the game and rebounds extremely well. Kidd has good defense also. Kidd leads the league in triple doubles. Kidd doesnt need to have a high FG% because he is a true definition of a point guard.
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Old 07-20-2006, 06:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GothamKnight
Payton had better teams
True...

Bue he still did have succes...


One can say Magic, or Jordan, or Isiah, had better teams, but it doesn't matter, they won, thats what counts...
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Old 07-20-2006, 06:49 PM   #20
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Gary Payton made Michael Jordan look mortal in the 1996 Finals.

Payton really did have it all, apart from a consistent 3-point shot.

But like somebody else said, these players offer different things to a team.


Say both of these guys are in their prime right now and I'm given the option of signing one, both of them are at the same price, for a couple of different scenarios:
Atlanta- I pick Kidd. They have a bunch of talented athletic players that could really benefit from Kidd's passing game. Imagine Josh Smith on the break with Kidd. Payton would try and be more of a scorer o nthis team.

Houston- I pick Payton. They need more of a half court point guard, that has a somewhat reliable jumper. A point guard that is an option on offense, who can fill in easily as the 3rd scorer.
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Old 07-20-2006, 06:49 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 420puffer
GP was real damn good during his prime with his crazy defense and scoring ability. He is good at attacking the basket. But Kidd is another level. Kidd is the best passer in the game and rebounds extremely well. Kidd has good defense also. Kidd leads the league in triple doubles. Kidd doesnt need to have a high FG% because he is a true definition of a point guard.
Just like "Kidd is good at defense"

Payton is good at passing, and is an above average rebounder as well...

And really, a "True PG" needs to be able to pass well and take "good" shots at not "hurt" the team by missing more than one should...

Magic, and Stockton, are "True PGs"...They pass well, and don't hurt their teams...

While Kidd, hurts his team with his low FG%s...
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Old 07-20-2006, 06:55 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReturnofCed
Gary Payton made Michael Jordan look mortal in the 1996 Finals.

Payton really did have it all, apart from a consistent 3-point shot.

But like somebody else said, these players offer different things to a team.


Say both of these guys are in their prime right now and I'm given the option of signing one, both of them are at the same price, for a couple of different scenarios:
Atlanta- I pick Kidd. They have a bunch of talented athletic players that could really benefit from Kidd's passing game. Imagine Josh Smith on the break with Kidd. Payton would try and be more of a scorer o nthis team.

Houston- I pick Payton. They need more of a half court point guard, that has a somewhat reliable jumper. A point guard that is an option on offense, who can fill in easily as the 3rd scorer.
Yeah

Team Situations it can go either way...But you can make up team situations for just about every player and say this player is better than this player in this situation...

But who is better individually?


Payton just didn't make Jordan look "mortal", he made him look even bad at times...

Jordan had his worst Finals Performance of his career...

He shot 41% on the series, and only 39% when Payton guarded him...
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:01 PM   #23
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I think it should be noted that GP's is always better than KIDD's I don't think he lacked the vision Kidd had just he had MR MEAN in the back of his head saying ...that's not a high percentage pass.....

J Kidd plays a freer game but usually in the play-offs he wouldn't be able to get going in the more half court setting.....

I never liked GP's style but he was a little better in the mid 90's...Prime vs Prime I can't disntinguish the two just becuz when KIDD got to NJ he started shooting better but the EAST was a little weak and they never matched up when he changed conferences but KIDD was better until KIDD went west IMO.
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
And Gary Payton had no weaknesses to his game...

He is the only PG in NBA History to not have any weakness to his game
What was John Stockton's weakness?
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:09 PM   #25
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What was John Stockton's weakness?

A couple

He was below average for a PG in


Rebounding
Strength
Athleticism
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:13 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
Yeah

Team Situations it can go either way...But you can make up team situations for just about every player and say this player is better than this player in this situation...

But who is better individually?


Payton just didn't make Jordan look "mortal", he made him look even bad at times...

Jordan had his worst Finals Performance of his career...

He shot 41% on the series, and only 39% when Payton guarded him...


are you sure Jordan shot that poorly overall?
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:19 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
A couple

He was below average for a PG in


Rebounding
Strength
Athleticism
He had a career average of almost 3 per game. PGs are generally not looked to for boards anyway but 3 isn't a bad number. Strength-wise, he was always in great shape (that's how he played for 19 seasons) and I didn't see any pgs pushing him around. And athleticism? He didn't throw down dunks but he was as fast as most guys he faced, had good endurance, and was an excellent defender, which would be tough if he were really unathletic. These criticism seem completely invalid.
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:20 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
And Gary Payton had no weaknesses to his game...

He is the only PG in NBA History to not have any weakness to his game
And another question: What was Isiah's weakness? (as a player, no GM jokes, please)
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:28 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GothamKnight
are you sure Jordan shot that poorly overall?
Yeah...

See how underrated Payton is...People forget how good he was...


Jordan Played 6 Games, where Payton was his primary defender 4 of them...Holding him down to only 39% shooting...And bringing his series average to 41%...

Nobody has done better in the Finals than that...
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:33 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
He had a career average of almost 3 per game. PGs are generally not looked to for boards anyway but 3 isn't a bad number. Strength-wise, he was always in great shape (that's how he played for 19 seasons) and I didn't see any pgs pushing him around. And athleticism? He didn't throw down dunks but he was as fast as most guys he faced, had good endurance, and was an excellent defender, which would be tough if he were really unathletic. These criticism seem completely invalid.
How is 2.7rpg in 32min for a career NOT BELOW AVERAGE...



Name me some other PGs that have a rpg that low...

3.5 should be average for that...

I mean seriosly, you cal 2.7rpg average even for a PG?

NO

Its below average...
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