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Old 07-20-2006, 07:34 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
And another question: What was Isiah's weakness? (as a player, no GM jokes, please)
3 Point Shooting...
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:47 PM   #32
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peolpe here do as if Payton was a half-court PG. The Sonics were a fast-breaking team, that's why Sawn Kemp could succeed. Payton had his strenghts both in a run-and-gun style AND half-court sets. Plus, he's one of the best defenders of all time.

The fact that Payton is a scoring threat and Kidd is not pushes Payton over Kidd in my book
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:49 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
3 Point Shooting...

are you saying that Paytons 3point shot was more consistent than Zeke`s? I doubt it
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:51 PM   #34
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you cant just judge Kidd by skills or stats. his affect on the game is huge and that's why i put him slightly above GP.
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:53 PM   #35
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what's Kidds effect on the game besides keeping the pace at a high rate?
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Old 07-20-2006, 08:11 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juvenile
are you saying that Paytons 3point shot was more consistent than Zeke`s? I doubt it
Yeah

Payton might've been a bad shooter early in his career...

But later, he could hit them...

He once led the LEAGUE in 3pts Made

No one who does that is "bad" at 3s...


And Isiah, he shot 29% from behind the arc throughout his career, and not even 1 year where he averaged 1 three per game, while Payton did that plenty of times...

Shooting 29% while not even making that much, is definantly a weakness...
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Old 07-20-2006, 08:13 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GothamKnight
you cant just judge Kidd by skills or stats. his affect on the game is huge and that's why i put him slightly above GP.

What effect? I know Kidd is a great impact player, but

His teams haven't been as successful as Payton's...


Kidd can't do much on a half court, and his team's have been average at offense, while Payton's teams are usually on the top...
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Old 07-20-2006, 08:16 PM   #38
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And lets not forget

His low TO rate


Payton is one of the least TO Prone PGs of All-Time...

Kidd has commited over 3 TOs 9 times, and less than 3 3 times...

While Payton has commited over 3 TOs only twice, and less than 3, 14 times...


Kidd was MUCH more TO Prone than Kidd...


Something that is VERY important for a PG
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Old 07-20-2006, 08:43 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
How is 2.7rpg in 32min for a career NOT BELOW AVERAGE...



Name me some other PGs that have a rpg that low...

3.5 should be average for that...

I mean seriosly, you cal 2.7rpg average even for a PG?

NO

Its below average...
Tim Hardaway was at 3.3. Mark Price did 2.6. KJ was at 3.3. And I could go on. Few pgs do any kind of meaningful rebounding. You're going to act like rebounding, which the pg position in general is not looked to for, is some kind of weakness? Stock played with Karl Malone, why should he be rebounding?
Quote:
3 Point Shooting...
In that case it's also GP's weakness, they were both below 33% (though Isiah was lower). In reality though, that's taking a statistic too seriously. Not until GP became a roleplayer was his three-point inadequacy an issue, and for Isiah it never was when he was leading Detroit. The primary offensive player doesn't need to shoot threes.
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Old 07-20-2006, 08:57 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
Tim Hardaway was at 3.3. Mark Price did 2.6. KJ was at 3.3. And I could go on. Few pgs do any kind of meaningful rebounding. You're going to act like rebounding, which the pg position in general is not looked to for, is some kind of weakness? Stock played with Karl Malone, why should he be rebounding?
In that case it's also GP's weakness, they were both below 33% (though Isiah was lower). In reality though, that's taking a statistic too seriously. Not until GP became a roleplayer was his three-point inadequacy an issue, and for Isiah it never was when he was leading Detroit. The primary offensive player doesn't need to shoot threes.
The only one of those that got lower than Stockton (Price) got 2.6rpg in less than 30min...


Once again, even though it isn't important, PGs still DO rebound...And Stockton is OBVIOUSLY below average for that...


Isiah couldn't shoot the 3 period...That was what I was saying, it was around when he played, and he couldn't make it...Period...

The 3 pointer was his weakness...He only shot 29% in his career



Payton in his prime could hit 33%...And the more 3s you shoot, the lower your %s usually are...Payton shot A LOT of 3s...And made a lot too

Payton led the league 1 year in 3pts Made

Are you going to say he lead the league in something that was his weakness?

LOL
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:12 PM   #41
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It really comes down to team needs if I had to chose, like someone else pointed out.

Paytons' edge in defense & scoring is what pushes GP over the top IMO. Kidd's ability to board is nice, but has he ever played with a great rebounding front court? No, so his rebounder numbers are somewhat inflated, just like if Manu was on the Hawks, his scoring numbers would rise. Jason Kidd is a very good rebounder, though.

It's been said before and I'll remind people again:

Which recent championship team had a true point guard, like Kidd is defind as all the time? Not many, you win with Chauncy Billups like PGs, the ones are a combo in that they aren't surpeme passers, rather very good passers and ones who can put the ball in the hoop. I really like Garys' combo of defense, offense and playmaking more then Kidds' combo of rebounding, passing and defense.

That's just me.

Last edited by Carbine : 07-20-2006 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:26 PM   #42
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And just to add on...


DURABILITY

Payton has only missed 7 games in the 16 years he had been here...

Kidd has missed 33 in the last 3 years, and has even had a year of playing only 55 games...

While Payton had a streak of 10 Years without a missed game



Things like that are VERY tough to do...
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:33 PM   #43
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I have had this exact argument over the last few days on a different board. I like glove_20 said that it was gp. Honestly i dont think its particularly close. Kidd was better in the open court and a good bit better rebounder. GP was better at scoring(much better), defending, and running a team in the half court. For all the talk about kidd as a passer(he is a great passer) he isnt a good half court pg. He doesnt run an offense well. Someone on the other board mentioned that they are both old so the age thing shouldnt be mentioned as an excuse for gp. One thing to let guys who might think that in on, When gp was 32(the age kidd is now) he averaged 23 and 8.1. People forget how truly remarkable he was.

If it wasnt for playing the best team of all time in his one finals with the sonics or the manimal just basically losing his mind, he would have won at least one ring as the superstar on his team. It saddens me that the crappy gp that is hanging on for dear life(god i hope he retires) has made people forget the truly amazing gp that he once was. Im glad he got a ring and all but it just made me sad even as a dallas fan for everyone to be so shocked that he made a couple of big shots in that series. He is GARY FREAKIN PAYTON. It should never be a shock that he does anything well.
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:37 PM   #44
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The Glove has superpowers and Jason Kidd is a normal human, so I'd say the Glover is the best.
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:28 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GothamKnight
are you sure Jordan shot that poorly overall?

Jordan shot 41.6% in the '96 Finals. Here's the thing, though, despite what Glove_20 will try to feed you:


-- Jordan was missing easy shots that he normally makes the entire series (open layups, open baseline 15-footers etc.) for some reason. So while Seattle (and Payton) played excellent defense on him, all you need to do is watch the series and you'll see that he just wasn't himself for whatever reasons.

-- Payton rarely guarded Jordan individually; Seattle trapped Jordan nearly every time he had the ball, both in the post and on the wing (that was their defensive style under Karl that year, and they turned it up against MJ). They were constantly running guys at MJ to get the ball out of his hands (employing illegal zones on his off the ball movement, as well). I'm willing to give Payton credit for his defense (which was excellent), but only when we keep the above two facts in mind.


All I can say really is "watch the series." I've honestly never seen Jordan miss more makeable shots -- and it's not even like he was being pressured. I think he just happened to go through a cold spell, really. Besides, he lit up Payton for 45 and 40 the following season on great shooting, so I wouldn't read too much into it. He wouldn't have shot 50% or anything against Payton and Seattle (best defensive combo guard in the league + the second best defensive team in the league behind Chicago, plus Jordan was 33 and tired), but he would have definitely been in the 44-46% range at the very least. Just watch the series yourself and you'll see that what I say is true.


Lastly, I'd love to know where Glove_20 got the "39%" figure for Payton, considering that A) Payton wasn't the primary defender, Hawkins was, and B) they didn't break down stats for individual defenders as far as I recall. But really, just watch the series. Jordan was like water-- they just couldn't hold him. Had a bad series, though -- probably the worst of his playoff career, actually. So credit goes to GP and Seattle. But watch the series.

Last edited by Loki : 07-20-2006 at 10:46 PM.
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