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Old 07-20-2006, 10:31 PM   #46
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The Glove has superpowers and Jason Kidd is a normal human, so I'd say the Glover is the best.

I agree
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:45 PM   #47
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Yes, you are now, after your edit ;)

of course hes not talking about 38 yr old Payton

dumb
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:49 PM   #48
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The only one of those that got lower than Stockton (Price) got 2.6rpg in less than 30min...


Once again, even though it isn't important, PGs still DO rebound...And Stockton is OBVIOUSLY below average for that...


Isiah couldn't shoot the 3 period...That was what I was saying, it was around when he played, and he couldn't make it...Period...

The 3 pointer was his weakness...He only shot 29% in his career



Payton in his prime could hit 33%...And the more 3s you shoot, the lower your %s usually are...Payton shot A LOT of 3s...And made a lot too

Payton led the league 1 year in 3pts Made

Are you going to say he lead the league in something that was his weakness?

LOL
Antoine Walker hit tons of threes, that didn't mean they were a good thing. GP lead the league in makes for one year but for his career, shootinnng 32%, it was a bad shot for him. Lead the league in them because he took a lot of them one year. doesn't change the fact that it was a bad shot for him.

Now back to the weak harpinng on Stock's rebounding. Averaging 0.6 less, career, then Hardaway makes it a weakness? That's foolish. Who even cares about six tenths of a board?
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:50 PM   #49
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Antoine Walker hit tons of threes, that didn't mean they were a good thing. GP lead the league in makes for one year but for his career, shootinnng 32%, it was a bad shot for him. Lead the league in them because he took a lot of them one year. doesn't change the fact that it was a bad shot for him.

Now back to the weak harpinng on Stock's rebounding. Averaging 0.6 less, career, then Hardaway makes it a weakness? That's foolish. Who even cares about six tenths of a board?

You should be up to 2,000 post by Sunday.
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Old 07-20-2006, 11:44 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Loki
Jordan shot 41.6% in the '96 Finals. Here's the thing, though, despite what Glove_20 will try to feed you:


-- Jordan was missing easy shots that he normally makes the entire series (open layups, open baseline 15-footers etc.) for some reason. So while Seattle (and Payton) played excellent defense on him, all you need to do is watch the series and you'll see that he just wasn't himself for whatever reasons.

-- Payton rarely guarded Jordan individually; Seattle trapped Jordan nearly every time he had the ball, both in the post and on the wing (that was their defensive style under Karl that year, and they turned it up against MJ). They were constantly running guys at MJ to get the ball out of his hands (employing illegal zones on his off the ball movement, as well). I'm willing to give Payton credit for his defense (which was excellent), but only when we keep the above two facts in mind.


All I can say really is "watch the series." I've honestly never seen Jordan miss more makeable shots -- and it's not even like he was being pressured. I think he just happened to go through a cold spell, really. Besides, he lit up Payton for 45 and 40 the following season on great shooting, so I wouldn't read too much into it. He wouldn't have shot 50% or anything against Payton and Seattle (best defensive combo guard in the league + the second best defensive team in the league behind Chicago, plus Jordan was 33 and tired), but he would have definitely been in the 44-46% range at the very least. Just watch the series yourself and you'll see that what I say is true.


Lastly, I'd love to know where Glove_20 got the "39%" figure for Payton, considering that A) Payton wasn't the primary defender, Hawkins was, and B) they didn't break down stats for individual defenders as far as I recall. But really, just watch the series. Jordan was like water-- they just couldn't hold him. Had a bad series, though -- probably the worst of his playoff career, actually. So credit goes to GP and Seattle. But watch the series.

No need to listen to Loki all the way either...


what an excuse, Jordan was "just having a bad series"

You can use that excuse for ANY player...

The truth was this: 1st of all, Payton and the Sonics made Jordan WORK...They ran, they pressured him on defense...And after Harper got hurt, Jordan had to guard Payton a lot too...

Jordan was tired out...By Payton...


Its true that Payton received "some" double team help...But really, it wasn't that much...

Jordan

39.6% 26.8ppg 4.8rpg 3.8apg 1.5apg 3.5tpg 2-2

Those were Jordan's numbers...As Payton became his primary defender game 3-6...


Now, if Payton really did receive a lot of double team help, you would expect more assists out of Jordan...But really, that was one of his worst assist finals...

True Payton did receive a lot of Double Team Help...But not too much...The numbers show it...


And if anyone knows where I got those stats, just ask me...
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:01 AM   #51
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Jordan shot 41.6% in the '96 Finals. Here's the thing, though, despite what Glove_20 will try to feed you:


-- Jordan was missing easy shots that he normally makes the entire series (open layups, open baseline 15-footers etc.) for some reason. So while Seattle (and Payton) played excellent defense on him, all you need to do is watch the series and you'll see that he just wasn't himself for whatever reasons.

-- Payton rarely guarded Jordan individually; Seattle trapped Jordan nearly every time he had the ball, both in the post and on the wing (that was their defensive style under Karl that year, and they turned it up against MJ). They were constantly running guys at MJ to get the ball out of his hands (employing illegal zones on his off the ball movement, as well). I'm willing to give Payton credit for his defense (which was excellent), but only when we keep the above two facts in mind.


All I can say really is "watch the series." I've honestly never seen Jordan miss more makeable shots -- and it's not even like he was being pressured. I think he just happened to go through a cold spell, really. Besides, he lit up Payton for 45 and 40 the following season on great shooting, so I wouldn't read too much into it. He wouldn't have shot 50% or anything against Payton and Seattle (best defensive combo guard in the league + the second best defensive team in the league behind Chicago, plus Jordan was 33 and tired), but he would have definitely been in the 44-46% range at the very least. Just watch the series yourself and you'll see that what I say is true.

So u finally feeling me on the stats issue..........but then again you gotta ask yourself why was he missing shots he normally hit? Isn't the same reason Clyde Drexler's numbers were down against MJ in teh 1992 finals.......I submit to you it is.......

But Glove 20.....you can't use 3 point shooting as a weakness for ISIAH and not for Glove using percentage becuz basically if you ask anyone for a three Isiah is as dangerous and off the dribble WAY more dangerous than GP...... Isiah shot way more three's off the dribble there isn't a player I know shooting more than 35% on three's off the dribble it's a tough shot....

But from start of carrer to end Isiah was teh better shooter anywhere on the court...percentages or not.....don't get too caught up in stats dude.....

and I mentioned teh turnover to assits ratio first.......GP beat KIDD every year in that ratio...meaning KIdd takes more chances but doesn't necesarily NET more positive results.


Lastly, I'd love to know where Glove_20 got the "39%" figure for Payton, considering that A) Payton wasn't the primary defender, Hawkins was, and B) they didn't break down stats for individual defenders as far as I recall. But really, just watch the series. Jordan was like water-- they just couldn't hold him. Had a bad series, though -- probably the worst of his playoff career, actually. So credit goes to GP and Seattle. But watch the series.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:07 AM   #52
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No need to listen to Loki all the way either...


what an excuse, Jordan was "just having a bad series"

You can use that excuse for ANY player...

The truth was this: 1st of all, Payton and the Sonics made Jordan WORK...They ran, they pressured him on defense...And after Harper got hurt, Jordan had to guard Payton a lot too...

Jordan was tired out...By Payton...


Its true that Payton received "some" double team help...But really, it wasn't that much...

Jordan

39.6% 26.8ppg 4.8rpg 3.8apg 1.5apg 3.5tpg 2-2

Those were Jordan's numbers...As Payton became his primary defender game 3-6...


Now, if Payton really did receive a lot of double team help, you would expect more assists out of Jordan...But really, that was one of his worst assist finals...

True Payton did receive a lot of Double Team Help...But not too much...The numbers show it...


And if anyone knows where I got those stats, just ask me...

Dude, you're crazy. Jordan was trapped nearly 75% of the time he caught the ball on the wing, and doubled in the post every time. It wasn't "some" help -- they were swarming him. Anyone can go watch the series and see for themselves.

And yes, he was having a bad shooting series by his own hand. No one who watched Jordan regularly will watch that series and come to any other conclusion; I've never seen him miss so many open jumpers and inside shots. And no, he wasn't fatigued in the first half of games when he was missing them, to preempt that particular argument.

As for his assists, lots of Bulls were missing shots off his passes -- Pippen and Kukoc combined for 64-170 (37.6%) shooting that series, and Kerr and Harper combined for 22-65 from the floor (33.8%); this also allowed them to focus more on MJ, since his teammates were ice cold. So...yeah. I have this entire series on tape, so we'll just agree to disagree; like I said, anyone can go watch the games and see which of us is closer to the truth. Payton played excellent defense, but he had tons of help, and Jordan was just off besides. Trust me. Payton and the Sonics played excellent defense (DPOY + the second best defensive team in the league), but I wouldn't read too much into it due to the aforementioned factors -- like I said, Jordan lit GP up for 45 and 40 the following season.

Last edited by Loki : 07-21-2006 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:12 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Loki
And yes, he was having a bad shooting series by his own hand. No one who watched Jordan regularly will watch that series and come to any other conclusion; I've never seen him miss so many open jumpers and inside shots. And no, he wasn't fatigued in the first half of games when he was missing them, to preempt that particular angle.

A


ok, Jordan and Payton are my two favorite ballers EVER, so let's get that out of the way so you don't think I'm playing sides.

However, it IS a weak excuse for you to just say "oh, jordan was just off, missing shots he normally makes". Then you can say the same about ANYONE AND EVERYONE who's ever been shut down! Kobe fans can say he stunked up the 2004 Finals not because of Pistons defense or Tayshaun Prince but Kobe was just "off". Bruce Bowen never shuts anyone down, whoever he's guarding was just having a bad day and was jsut off... LOL, that's just absurd.

The fact is GP is one of the top defenders of ALL time and he bothered jordan, but Jordan is the freaking GOAT and still overcame everything to win his 4th ring.

That's all there is to it, GP is one of the greatest defenders ever, and he was able to somewhat bother the GOAT on D, but the GOAT is still the GOAt and still won at the end.

If you take the 96 GP and have him guard Kobe for a whole series, he'd force Kobe into 35% shooting. GP is that good.

And to this thread, HELL YES GP was better than Kidd, hell GP tutored Kidd and taught him how to ball back in Oakland.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:14 AM   #54
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this is some good stuff fellas. Nicely played on both sides.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:18 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
Antoine Walker hit tons of threes, that didn't mean they were a good thing. GP lead the league in makes for one year but for his career, shootinnng 32%, it was a bad shot for him. Lead the league in them because he took a lot of them one year. doesn't change the fact that it was a bad shot for him.

Now back to the weak harpinng on Stock's rebounding. Averaging 0.6 less, career, then Hardaway makes it a weakness? That's foolish. Who even cares about six tenths of a board?
Payton didn't shoot 32% while leading the league...

He shot 34%, which medicore, and he led the league...

So thats good


I am just saying, below 3rpg is below average...

Basically, there are WAY more PGs that can do a better job in 32min, than that can't...

And you know thats true, making Stockton BELOW AVERAGE
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:19 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by EricForman
ok, Jordan and Payton are my two favorite ballers EVER, so let's get that out of the way so you don't think I'm playing sides.

However, it IS a weak excuse for you to just say "oh, jordan was just off, missing shots he normally makes". Then you can say the same about ANYONE AND EVERYONE who's ever been shut down! Kobe fans can say he stunked up the 2004 Finals not because of Pistons defense or Tayshaun Prince but Kobe was just "off". Bruce Bowen never shuts anyone down, whoever he's guarding was just having a bad day and was jsut off... LOL, that's just absurd.

The fact is GP is one of the top defenders of ALL time and he bothered jordan, but Jordan is the freaking GOAT and still overcame everything to win his 4th ring.

That's all there is to it, GP is one of the greatest defenders ever, and he was able to somewhat bother the GOAT on D, but the GOAT is still the GOAt and still won at the end.

If you take the 96 GP and have him guard Kobe for a whole series, he'd force Kobe into 35% shooting. GP is that good.

And to this thread, HELL YES GP was better than Kidd, hell GP tutored Kidd and taught him how to ball back in Oakland.


You're not understanding the difference. When a player is "shut down," it usually means that they're being forced into difficult, contested shots, and missing many of them. Jordan was missing wide open shots (layups, 15-footers etc.) that he makes 85-90% of the time. It's not the same as Kobe vs. Detroit (to use the example you gave) because anyone who watched that series can see that Kobe was pressing the issue, and was forced into a lot of bad shots; not so for Jordan, who was taking the type of shots he usually got, but just missing them for whatever reasons.


I'm not going to debate this. When I see Jordan miss 3-4 wide open 15-footers every game (some very badly) along with some layups/gimme's, I know something is just off with him. This is not to say that GP and Seattle didn't play sterling defense, because they did -- I just wouldn't read into it too much. I'm not saying he would have shot 50% had his shot not been off, but he definitely would have been in the 44-46% range at the very least. Like I said, he lit up GP for 45 and 40 on like 65% shooting the following season -- so what happened in the space of 6 months? Be realistic...

Last edited by Loki : 07-21-2006 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:27 AM   #57
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So u finally feeling me on the stats issue..........but then again you gotta ask yourself why was he missing shots he normally hit? Isn't the same reason Clyde Drexler's numbers were down against MJ in teh 1992 finals.......I submit to you it is.......

But Glove 20.....you can't use 3 point shooting as a weakness for ISIAH and not for Glove using percentage becuz basically if you ask anyone for a three Isiah is as dangerous and off the dribble WAY more dangerous than GP...... Isiah shot way more three's off the dribble there isn't a player I know shooting more than 35% on three's off the dribble it's a tough shot....

But from start of carrer to end Isiah was teh better shooter anywhere on the court...percentages or not.....don't get too caught up in stats dude.....

and I mentioned teh turnover to assits ratio first.......GP beat KIDD every year in that ratio...meaning KIdd takes more chances but doesn't necesarily NET more positive results.


Lastly, I'd love to know where Glove_20 got the "39%" figure for Payton, considering that A) Payton wasn't the primary defender, Hawkins was, and B) they didn't break down stats for individual defenders as far as I recall. But really, just watch the series. Jordan was like water-- they just couldn't hold him. Had a bad series, though -- probably the worst of his playoff career, actually. So credit goes to GP and Seattle. But watch the series.


If you are shooting 29% from behind the arc...That is a weakness no matter what...Maybe its just the "tough" shot selection he took...But then I could just say his 3pt shot selection was his weakness...

But you can't hide, 29%, that is below 30%...

And its just not 3s either...Here is another one, Longetivity

Isiah couldn't play as he aged...He retired at like age 32...


And I was going to mention the Assist to TO ratio anyways...But either ways, I didn't even talk about the Ast to TO, I just said he wasn't very TO prone...
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:33 AM   #58
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Default edge to gp

as much as i respect kidd's game, in their primes, i'd take gp. the defense he played was iron clad

consider too, how many guards have put up 20,000+ points and 8,000+ assists in a career? just oscar robertson and gp. so the longevity and completeness of his game gives him an edge

also, the fact that gp has the biggest trash mouth ought to earn him some intangible street-cred points...something special for a point guard
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:35 AM   #59
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I would take Payton in his prime, but Kidd's had the better career, in my opinion.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:40 AM   #60
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Dude, you're crazy. Jordan was trapped nearly 75% of the time he caught the ball on the wing, and doubled in the post every time. It wasn't "some" help -- they were swarming him. Anyone can go watch the series and see for themselves.

And yes, he was having a bad shooting series by his own hand. No one who watched Jordan regularly will watch that series and come to any other conclusion; I've never seen him miss so many open jumpers and inside shots. And no, he wasn't fatigued in the first half of games when he was missing them, to preempt that particular argument.

As for his assists, lots of Bulls were missing shots off his passes -- Pippen and Kukoc combined for 64-170 (37.6%) shooting that series, and Kerr and Harper combined for 22-65 from the floor (33.8%); this also allowed them to focus more on MJ, since his teammates were ice cold. So...yeah. I have this entire series on tape, so we'll just agree to disagree; like I said, anyone can go watch the games and see which of us is closer to the truth. Payton played excellent defense, but he had tons of help, and Jordan was just off besides. Trust me. Payton and the Sonics played excellent defense (DPOY + the second best defensive team in the league), but I wouldn't read too much into it due to the aforementioned factors -- like I said, Jordan lit GP up for 45 and 40 the following season.

1st of all...Its not DPOY + 2nd Best Defensive Team

Its 2nd Best Defensive Team BECAUSE of the DPOY

Payton did get a lot of help on the post...

But otherwise, on the perimeter, it was just a little help...

I don't have the series on tape, but I remember things well...


And if the Sonics were all helping Payton, I wonder how the rest of the team, including Pippen, struggled?
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