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Old 07-21-2006, 12:44 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Loki
You're not understanding the difference. When a player is "shut down," it usually means that they're being forced into difficult, contested shots, and missing many of them. Jordan was missing wide open shots (layups, 15-footers etc.) that he makes 85-90% of the time. It's not the same as Kobe vs. Detroit (to use the example you gave) because anyone who watched that series can see that Kobe was pressing the issue, and was forced into a lot of bad shots; not so for Jordan, who was taking the type of shots he usually got, but just missing them for whatever reasons.


I'm not going to debate this. When I see Jordan miss 3-4 wide open 15-footers every game (some very badly) along with some layups/gimme's, I know something is just off with him. This is not to say that GP and Seattle didn't play sterling defense, because they did -- I just wouldn't read into it too much. I'm not saying he would have shot 50% had his shot not been off, but he definitely would have been in the 44-46% range at the very least. Like I said, he lit up GP for 45 and 40 on like 65% shooting the following season -- so what happened in the space of 6 months? Be realistic...


Well 1st of all...Payton's best defensive year was 1996...

2nd, The Finals are different form regular season...


And you are just going against yourself...

If Sonics were swarming him SOO much, why was he wide open?
If the Sonics were all over him, all the time, how did he get SOO many open shots?
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:45 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by xxxSuperStar
this is some good stuff fellas. Nicely played on both sides.

Except that the Kidd side has nothing more to say...

And this is becoming more Jordan vs. Payton 1996 NBA Finals
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:49 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by RainierBeachPoet
as much as i respect kidd's game, in their primes, i'd take gp. the defense he played was iron clad

consider too, how many guards have put up 20,000+ points and 8,000+ assists in a career? just oscar robertson and gp. so the longevity and completeness of his game gives him an edge

also, the fact that gp has the biggest trash mouth ought to earn him some intangible street-cred points...something special for a point guard
And how many other players have gotten

20,000 points
8,000 assists
and
2,000 steals?

Only 1...Payton


Or

20,000 points
8,000 assists
5,000 rebounds

Only 1...Payton
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:51 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by ShannonElements
I would take Payton in his prime, but Kidd's had the better career, in my opinion.

How is that?

Payton has had much more success in his career...

His career totals are MUCH higher than Kidd's...

He even has a "ring" to add to his career

His teams have done much better than Kidd's...



But Kidd wins career? Hmmmm
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:51 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Glove_20
1st of all...Its not DPOY + 2nd Best Defensive Team

And if the Sonics were all helping Payton, I wonder how the rest of the team, including Pippen, struggled?

Because Karl employed an illegal zone all series, basically? Even Matt Goukas commented on this during a broadcast. Besides that, Seattle had excellent rotations, and they switched up where their traps were coming, and when they were coming from, very well (incidentally, I've always picked the '96 Seattle team for a top 5 defensive team of the last decade). Kukoc and Pippen were just ice cold all playoffs, by the way: Pippen shot just 41% and Kukoc shot just 36% that postseason prior to the Finals. So the Sonics did a decent job, but those guys were ice cold all postseason; their frigidity allowed Seattle to key on Jordan, which is what they did.

Why would I lie? Again, I'm not saying that Jordan would have shot 50% against them if his shot weren't off; all I'm saying is that they swarmed Jordan a lot (even illegally on off-the-ball movement, which Walton/Goukas repeatedly noted), and he was missing wide open shots he usually made. I never said that Payton or Seattle didn't play great defense against him, because they did. But take all of these factors -- as well as the fact that MJ lit up GP/Seattle for 45 and 40 on excellent shooting not 6 months later -- into consideration before you act like Payton was solely responsible for the precipitous drop in Jordan's FG%. :)

This is not to say that GP didn't anchor that defense, because he did (along with Kemp, who was an above-average shotblocker at the time).

Quote:
And you are just going against yourself...

If Sonics were swarming him SOO much, why was he wide open?
If the Sonics were all over him, all the time, how did he get SOO many open shots?

Because he's the GOAT and he knows how to find open shots? There's a reason he's one of the two best scorers in history, you know. That's really what separated Jordan from other wing scorers -- the fact that he could get good shots against virtually any sort of pressure, because his offensive game was so complete. By the way, it wasn't "sooooo many" wide open shots, but I'd say about 4 per game that he'd usually make 3 of, and he was bricking them badly -- layups, baseline J's, you name it. Add it up and it means a nice drop in his FG%. I have no explanation for it, though; all I can do is advise people to watch the series before jumping to conclusions about the numbers. :)

Last edited by Loki : 07-21-2006 at 12:58 AM.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:59 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Loki
Because Karl employed an illegal zone all series, basically? Even Matt Goukas commented on this during a broadcast. Besides that, Seattle had excellent rotations, and they switched up where their traps were coming, and when they were coming from, very well (incidentally, I've always picked the '96 Seattle team for a top 5 defensive team of the last decade). Kukoc and Pippen were just ice cold all playoffs, by the way: Pippen shot just 41% and Kukoc shot just 36% that postseason prior to the Finals. So the Sonics did a decent job, but those guys were ice cold all postseason; their frigidity allowed Seattle to key on Jordan, which is what they did.

Why would I lie? Again, I'm not saying that Jordan would have shot 50% against them if his shot weren't off; all I'm saying is that they swarmed Jordan a lot (even illegally on off-the-ball movement, which Walton/Goukas repeatedly noted), and he was missing wide open shots he usually made. I never said that Payton or Seattle didn't play great defense against him, because they did. But take all of these factors -- as well as the fact that MJ lit up GP/Seattle for 45 and 40 on excellent shooting not 6 months later -- into consideration before you act like Payton was solely responsible for the precipitous drop in Jordan's FG%. :)

This is not to say that GP didn't anchor that defense, because he did (along with Kemp, who was an above-average shotblocker at the time).



Because he's the GOAT and he knows how to find open shots? There's a reason he's one of the two best scorers in history, you know. That's really what separated Jordan from other wing scorers -- the fact that he could get good shots against virtually any sort of pressure, because his offensive game was so complete. By the way, it wasn't "sooooo many" wide open shots, but I'd say about 4 per game that he'd usually make 3 of, and he was bricking them badly -- layups, baseline J's, you name it. Add it up and it means a nice drop in his FG%. I have no explanation for it, though; all I can do is advise people to watch the series before jumping to conclusions about the numbers. :)
And how did the rest shoot?

Still, it is hard to believe they would shoot that low when they are "all" open...

And part of the reason Pippen struggled was because of Payton, Payton guarded him game 1 and 2...and did a decent job...

And really, the Sonics doubled Jordan MUCH more games 1 and 2...Then Payton started guarding him, and they didn't do that as much...

Summary:

The Sonics Game Plan going in to the series was to shut down Pippen with their DPOY Payton, and Double Jordan all day...

Jordan did very well Games 1 and 2...It didn't work...

So Karl put Payton on Jordan...

Now if he was just going to continue double teaming Jordan, why would he put switch the job to Payton, and not keep shutting down Pippen? Sure Karl still gave Payton help, but obviously, not as much

And I said Payton did get help, and didn't do it all alone...


But anyways...This is a Kidd vs. Payton thread...
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Old 07-21-2006, 01:39 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Glove_20
And how did the rest shoot?

Still, it is hard to believe they would shoot that low when they are "all" open...

And part of the reason Pippen struggled was because of Payton, Payton guarded him game 1 and 2...and did a decent job...

And really, the Sonics doubled Jordan MUCH more games 1 and 2...Then Payton started guarding him, and they didn't do that as much...

Summary:

The Sonics Game Plan going in to the series was to shut down Pippen with their DPOY Payton, and Double Jordan all day...

Jordan did very well Games 1 and 2...It didn't work...

So Karl put Payton on Jordan...

Now if he was just going to continue double teaming Jordan, why would he put switch the job to Payton, and not keep shutting down Pippen? Sure Karl still gave Payton help, but obviously, not as much

And I said Payton did get help, and didn't do it all alone...


But anyways...This is a Kidd vs. Payton thread...

You're indefatigable, Glove_20, I'll give you that.

Yes, they had Payton on Pippen in games 1 and 2 primarily (which is why I said in my initial post that GP wasn't the primary defender on Jordan, Hawkins was; they even had Schrempf on him at times). However, your premises aren't really true:

-- Yes, Kukoc and Pippen were ice cold all playoffs, even when open. Kukoc was 3-36 (8%!) from three coming into the Finals, and 90+% of those shots were open spot-ups off of MJ's post-ups or Jordan and Pippen's penetration. Pippen's shot had deserted him at the end of the season and it carried over into the playoffs. He was 9-39 (23%) from three in the Finals, and again, if you know the triangle offense, you know that the majority of those shots are wide open. Kerr, a guy who shot nearly 52% from deep in the regular season, was an abysmal 4-22 (18%!) from three in the Finals. Again, these were mostly wide open shots. So yes, they shot that poorly despite being "wide open" for the most part (it's harder to guess on the quality of shots they were getting inside the line, but the Triangle offense is not about taking contested 3's, I'll tell you that much -- these were open shots they were bricking, by and large).


-- Pippen shot 50% (8-16) against Payton in game 2, which was his best shooting game of the series. Over the course of the first 2 games, he shot 13-31 (41.9%), whereas for the rest of the series (games 3-6), he shot a dismal 30.8%. So that sorta throws a wrench into your "part of the reason Pippen struggled was because of Payton, Payton guarded him game 1 and 2," wouldn't you say?


Quote:
part of the reason Pippen struggled was because of Payton, Payton guarded him game 1 and 2

But as we see above, that's not true -- Pippen was just ice cold that entire series (and postseason). He actually shot better against GP than he did afterwards.

And again, when your other 4 scorers (Pippen, Kukoc, Kerr, and Harper) go a combined 36% from the field, the defense will key in more on you until they prove themselves, which they only started doing towards the end of game 5.

Quote:
Now if he was just going to continue double teaming Jordan, why would he put switch the job to Payton, and not keep shutting down Pippen? Sure Karl still gave Payton help, but obviously, not as much

Because he wasn't really "shutting down Pippen" with Payton in the first place, and Jordan was having moderate success (28.5 ppg/5 apg on 45% shooting through the first two games)? And yes, Payton got just as much help as Hawkins and Schrempf did on Jordan -- don't kid yourself. I've watched this series many times, most recently about 6 weeks ago while on vacation. When Jordan caught the ball on the wing off of baseline screens, he was trapped by GP (his defender) and a secondary defender to get the ball out of his hands; when he popped out of the post to catch the ball a little further out on the wing, they ran another defender at him; on curls, they were shadowing him with a second defender so he didn't get open as Payton/Hawkins trailed; in the post he was doubled about 85-90% of the time.

Quote:
Well 1st of all...Payton's best defensive year was 1996...

Yeah, but he still received a large portion of the votes for DPOY in '97, and was a defensive force until at least 2001, so it's not like he wasn't still firmly in his defensive prime. And Jordan lit him up -- how does that jibe with what you're trying to portray here, which is that GP performed some miracle and limited Jordan strictly by his own effort. My stance, which is that Payton certainly had an impact but other factors also contributed (e.g., MJ being off, Seattle's swarming D, and ice cold teammates), seems more consistent with the totality of the evidence, I'd say. :)


Regardless, though, I've made my points and you've made yours. It's been a spirited discussion, but I'm content to leave it here, since I've said everything I wanted to. To reiterate, however, my main thrust was as seen below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Again, I'm not saying that Jordan would have shot 50% against them if his shot weren't off; all I'm saying is that they swarmed Jordan a lot (even illegally on off-the-ball movement, which Walton/Goukas repeatedly noted), and he was missing wide open shots he usually made. I never said that Payton or Seattle didn't play great defense against him, because they did. But take all of these factors -- as well as the fact that MJ lit up GP/Seattle for 45 and 40 on excellent shooting not 6 months later -- into consideration before you act like Payton was solely responsible for the precipitous drop in Jordan's FG%. :)


One last thing that I missed earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KWALI
So u finally feeling me on the stats issue..........but then again you gotta ask yourself why was he missing shots he normally hit? Isn't the same reason Clyde Drexler's numbers were down against MJ in teh 1992 finals.......I submit to you it is.......

And I submit to you that it isn't. Drexler was taking and missing contested shots, not open ones. In addition, he was launching prayers since he was unable to locate a good shot against the Chicago defense. Jordan wasn't launching prayers -- he was largely getting the same quality looks he always got, but he was missing many of them, even the wide open ones. I hope you can see the difference; if not, I'd only ask that you re-watch each series to see what the difference is between their situations. :)


Lastly, on-topic, I'd say my answer to the GP/JKidd question would be similar to TheReturnofCed's post on page 2 (best post in this thread). Very tough call, really.

Last edited by Loki : 07-21-2006 at 02:39 AM.
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Old 07-21-2006, 03:46 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Glove_20
Payton didn't shoot 32% while leading the league...

He shot 34%, which medicore, and he led the league...

So thats good


I am just saying, below 3rpg is below average...

Basically, there are WAY more PGs that can do a better job in 32min, than that can't...

And you know thats true, making Stockton BELOW AVERAGE
'Toine shot 34% in 01-02, while taking 8 of them per game. Made (and took) more of them than GP ever did that year, so now we can say that the three wasn't a weakness for him, right? Such logic is clearly garbage. We're judging GP's whole career, not just one season, and even that season wasn't that good at 34%.

This rebound stuff also ought to be put to rest. I never heard anyone complain about Stock's rebounding other than you. Some random PG's that have failed to gather 2.7 in single seasons (a number dragged down by Stock getting old over 19 years, by the way): Mike Bibby twice, Eric Snow his last two years as a Cav, rookie Jameer Nelson (this year he was a huge factor at 2.9), rookie starbury, and I could go on. Most PGs are around 3. This is a relevent weakness? Arguments like this are the real weakness...
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Old 07-21-2006, 04:09 AM   #69
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not so for Jordan, who was taking the type of shots he usually got, but just missing them for whatever reasons.



Ok, maybe Jordan let GP's trash talking got to his head then hahahaha.

The best highlight from that series, was when GP stripped Jordan on D, drove down court, dunked it, then turned around and trash talked Jordan. GP is the freaking man!!!

But jordan's the GOAT.
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Old 07-21-2006, 04:18 AM   #70
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I think GP was a better defender than kidd but its not like kidd cant hold his own on the D either...plus i think kidd is a true point guard...he is the definition of a point guard...pass firts, runs the floor well, hits big shots, and plays D...he's also one of the best rebounding point guards...i like them both...I think GP has had more success but kidd is a player that makes his team so much better, and i think a point guard must do that...so many guys had great seasons becasue of kidd...but GP had the lock down D that kidd doesnt have...GP also was a efficient scorer...a better shooter than kidd...all in all i think these guys are real close in who was better in their primes...but i think kidd is the treu definition of a point guard and i thihnk he makes his teammates better than GP did
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Old 07-21-2006, 05:02 AM   #71
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LOL who let the fanboys out of their cages. I'm waiting for jordanstar to chime in.
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Old 07-21-2006, 05:11 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Glove_20
How is that?

Payton has had much more success in his career...

His career totals are MUCH higher than Kidd's...

He even has a "ring" to add to his career

His teams have done much better than Kidd's...



But Kidd wins career? Hmmmm

Payton's had more success? You sure about that? Let's not forget that Kidd led his team to back-to-back Finals appearances, was second in the MVP voting one year, has an insane amount of triple-doubles, plenty of accolades, and GP's 'ring' came as an off-the-bench roleplayer. It's definitely arguable. The only major edge GP has over Kidd is scoring. In pretty much every other category(except for D, and even then it's comparable) Kidd has the advantage.
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Old 07-21-2006, 05:30 AM   #73
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I think this is actually a quite interesting comparison. I personally have always liked Payton more than Kidd, but after both have retired I feel it will be Kidd who will be rated higher. Yes, Payton has a ring, and has been to finals 3 times, but apart from '96 he was part of the supporting cast of the finalist teams. Kidd, on the other hand, was clearly the best player of two eastern conference finalists, and should have been MVP once. Kidd will probably be remembered as the best playmaker of the late 90's/early 2000s. Payton is one of the best pg defenders of all time, but Kidd has been a true superstar.
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Old 07-21-2006, 09:04 AM   #74
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Heres the lowdown, Kidd makes everyone better, one of the best passers of all time, one of the best PG of all time, probably top 5 rebounding PG wise. Both basically on par defenseively, Gp maybe just a little better not much. Payton was definetly a better scorer, more of the modern PG, Kidd was more of a traditional PG. But Kidd was definetly better. If you sent GP to the Nets instead of Kidd, I don't think they'd have made the finals...
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Old 07-21-2006, 09:17 AM   #75
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I love J-Kidd and GP....

Both from my stomping grounds...the Nickel and Dime!!!!!!!!
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