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Old 07-21-2006, 10:59 PM   #106
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passing and rebonding...

Thats Kidd's only advantage...

And Payton could do both of those well too


Payton has a big edge in scoring, and has the edge in defense...

And then, all the team success, Payton's teams have been much more successfull, he even has a ring...

And then the amazing durability, 7 games missed in 16 years...Including 10 years straight without a game missed...Kidd has missed 33 in the last 3 years, and had a year of 55 games played...


And Payton even has more advantages...


And Kidd, who hurts his team when he shoots, shooting 40%...While Payton helps his team by shooting around 47-48%...

Would you want a PG that "hurts" your team when he tries to score?
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Old 07-22-2006, 01:07 AM   #107
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1: 32% three-point shooting is not "average," it's bad.

2: Making a big deal about Stockton's 2.7 rpg when most pgs that out-board him are only decimal points ahead is stupid.

I'm done with this thread, boring argument that's going nowhere.
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Old 07-22-2006, 01:09 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
1: 32% three-point shooting is not "average," it's bad.

2: Making a big deal about Stockton's 2.7 rpg when most pgs that out-board him are only decimal points ahead is stupid.

I'm done with this thread, boring argument that's going nowhere.

that is average knucklehead, it's probaly above average for the League,Guards,Fowards,ect..
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Old 07-22-2006, 01:14 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Hatter
that is average knucklehead, it's probaly above average for the League,Guards,Fowards,ect..
Exactly...


That guy is stupid


If you count all PGs...


Payton's numbers would be average...
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Old 07-22-2006, 01:19 AM   #110
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Although I agree Payton is better than Kidd for his career...


you are going way out of bounds to judge someone as stupid because they think 32% is bad...

And well, it is, or at least Below average, but that's not Payton's game, he didn't just camp out at the 3 and chuck all day like Toine or something...
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Old 07-22-2006, 01:19 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
1: 32% three-point shooting is not "average," it's bad.

2: Making a big deal about Stockton's 2.7 rpg when most pgs that out-board him are only decimal points ahead is stupid.

I'm done with this thread, boring argument that's going nowhere.
Wow...You seriously don't know what you are talking about and are making yourself look stupid...


The 3pt %s and numbers Payton puts up, MOST PGs can't do...

How many other PGs can make as much as Payton or even shoot around 33%? More not than can...Making Payton average to above average...

Do you not know how many he made per game? Not many players can do that...I can name more that can't than can...




And do you even know what "Average" means?

If 0.8 is average, then 0.4 is below average...

It IS a matter of decimal points...


And Stockton is well below average...

What don't you understand?

If there are more MANY PGs that are better than Stockton at rebounding than worse...Than he is below average


Whats so hard to understand?
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:19 AM   #112
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So, most pgs don't shoot 32% from 3? Don't call me stupid when you don't know what you're talking about. Just keep on harping on the Jazz-crippling weakness that was Stockton's rebounding like a good little retard.
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:20 AM   #113
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Default i still believe in kidd

i still believe in kidd...yes you have good points for payton...yes he scores better and defends better, and he can rebound and pass...kidd i still think is a better passer, and a better rebounder. although his scoring pales behind payton's he can defend.

what i like about him that sets him over payton is what he does to a team..not the stats he makes...iverson has great stats, but look at his team? when jkidd went into nj, he came to a team that barely made it into the playoffs...a team where he was the only change that could make a difference, where he was the ONLY good thing in the eyes of the world. the nets were a bad team which was a potential 7-8 seed in a really bad EC...you guys yourself said that the EC back then was laughable. overnight he changed that team into a 50win team that made it to the finals. yes he is overrated. yes the east was laughable...but no way i can see the payton changing the face of a franchise overnight like that when he was the same age as kidd and traded in the same situation. yes he'd turn the team into a playoff contender, but not the contender kidd did...they even lasted 6 games with a team loaded with power, the 2003 spurs...i still believe that was the best spurs team i have ever seen in my time. im still young yes, but kidd is still the better guard for me.

given the same talent at the same time, i dont think payton would make it past AI or carter then...they were too explosive, even more explosive than MJ was when payton faced him...jordan was 33, AI and VC then were like gods flying through the air making impossible shots even when you're wrapping yourself all over them so that only their arms could be seen. no, in the same situation, with the same players, i dont think payton can do it...even if he did manage to, he will end up with the same results kidd did whatever his stats.

he may not put up the numbers payton does, but something about his work ethic and his leadership turns losers and mediocrity into something great. Kmart in denver is not the allstar he is when he was with kidd...payton's teams had better players than kidd had...kidd makes players better in a way i have never seen payton being able to...payton can take a good team and players and take them far...kidd is given a bunch of nobodies and turns them to stars...
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Old 07-22-2006, 08:26 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
Who was the better player in their primes?


I'd say Payton...


He is a better scorer and a better defender

2 of the most (if not the most) important categories in basketball...


And Jason Kidd is known for having very low FG%s...Low 40s to High 30s...


are you actually gary payton? if you are, can you please tell antoine walker to lose some weight and stop attempting contested 3 pointers?
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Old 07-22-2006, 10:20 AM   #115
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Default catching up

just now catching up with this thread

i bow to your moxie glove20! like a pit bull bull for gary...

the stats speak for themselves from overall career. too bad their primes didnt really coincide as gary is a bit older.

check out oscar r though: 7800+ rebounds and i dont believe the kept the steals stat back in oscars time

the stats dont tell the whole story though. heart is important gary's vocal nature puts his heart more out there than kidd

also, i still think that the trash talking element is an important "street" intangible

the payton-wade thing can be interpreted differently too. gary could be the spark that got wade going and the voice of experience that put the series in perspective.

amazing how many people let their dislike for the in-your-face-gp cloud seeing him for what he has done


since the debate is essentially over, check out my new question for point guards in the forum and sonics room
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Old 07-22-2006, 12:45 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
So, most pgs don't shoot 32% from 3? Don't call me stupid when you don't know what you're talking about. Just keep on harping on the Jazz-crippling weakness that was Stockton's rebounding like a good little retard.

OK...

I didn't say they just didn't shoot 32%, I said that they don't shoot "32%-34%", while making as many 3s per game as Payton did...

It might be average to below average for a "3pt Shooter" but not for a PG period...Because some of them are at 0%...LOL



And is that all you had to say about Stockton?

EXACTLY

You got nothing more to say...

Get it in your head

Stockton is below average in rebounding...PERIOD
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Old 07-22-2006, 12:56 PM   #117
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Kidd is the better player.
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Old 07-22-2006, 01:00 PM   #118
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Gary might have the better individual talent, but if I were an NBA player I'd prefer to play with Kidd.
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Old 07-22-2006, 01:11 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chanchan05
i still believe in kidd...yes you have good points for payton...yes he scores better and defends better, and he can rebound and pass...kidd i still think is a better passer, and a better rebounder. although his scoring pales behind payton's he can defend.

what i like about him that sets him over payton is what he does to a team..not the stats he makes...iverson has great stats, but look at his team? when jkidd went into nj, he came to a team that barely made it into the playoffs...a team where he was the only change that could make a difference, where he was the ONLY good thing in the eyes of the world. the nets were a bad team which was a potential 7-8 seed in a really bad EC...you guys yourself said that the EC back then was laughable. overnight he changed that team into a 50win team that made it to the finals. yes he is overrated. yes the east was laughable...but no way i can see the payton changing the face of a franchise overnight like that when he was the same age as kidd and traded in the same situation. yes he'd turn the team into a playoff contender, but not the contender kidd did...they even lasted 6 games with a team loaded with power, the 2003 spurs...i still believe that was the best spurs team i have ever seen in my time. im still young yes, but kidd is still the better guard for me.

given the same talent at the same time, i dont think payton would make it past AI or carter then...they were too explosive, even more explosive than MJ was when payton faced him...jordan was 33, AI and VC then were like gods flying through the air making impossible shots even when you're wrapping yourself all over them so that only their arms could be seen. no, in the same situation, with the same players, i dont think payton can do it...even if he did manage to, he will end up with the same results kidd did whatever his stats.

he may not put up the numbers payton does, but something about his work ethic and his leadership turns losers and mediocrity into something great. Kmart in denver is not the allstar he is when he was with kidd...payton's teams had better players than kidd had...kidd makes players better in a way i have never seen payton being able to...payton can take a good team and players and take them far...kidd is given a bunch of nobodies and turns them to stars...


OK...

So you valued Kidds making "teams better" over the other advantages Payton had on Kidd...

Kidd of course was a better rebounder and passer...But Payton could do both those well too...

Payton was a better scorer and defender....Kidd could defend, but score? NO



Now, yes Kidd does make teams better...And he did improve the Nets...

But taking them to the NBA Finals twice was basically making to the playoffs or at best getting out of the 1st round in the western confrence...

Kidd in his 5 years of playoffs with the Suns, went out of the 1st round once, and that was against the Duncan Less Spurs...How Pathetic...Otherwise, he'd get sweept, lose in 4, lose to Payton and the Sonics, lose to Spurs WITH DUNCAN, etc.


So he comes to a pathetic east, and gets a team with the same talent level he had in Phoenix and they go to the NBA Finals past teams like Pierce's Celtics who he met at the ECF...On one of Kidd's runs, only 1 team had over 50+ WIns in the East...And another run, only like 2 did...The bottom west seeds could've made it to the Finals (They did actually, Kidd's Suns would've)

Then later, the East gets tough, teams like Pacers, Pistons, and the Heat show up...And suddenly, the Nets dissapear....When real talent comes, the Kidd's Nets look bad again....And this time Kidd even had a better starcast...He had Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson, and a couple of good role players...


Kidd's 2 Final Apperances were pathetic....

But he still gets credit for turning them around...


PS:The 33 year old Jordan was averaging 30ppg...



Now yeah, Kidd turned teams around, but Payton WON with his team period...And don't say, he had better players, because then you can use that against any champion, you can say that against Jordan, Magic, Bird, etc.

Yeah teammates do make a difference, but its how much you win that counts....Its too bad Wilkins didn't have good teammates, or he'd be remembered more...

Kidd:

10 Playoff Appearances
4 50-59 Win Teams
0 60+ Win Teams
2 NBA Finals
0 Championships

Payton;

14 Playoff Appearances
5 50-59 Win Teams
3 60+ Win Teams
3 NBA Finals
1 Championship



But thats those aren't all of Payton's advantages either...

Another thing is he was very less TO Prone...Some thing VERY IMPORTANT for a PG...

Kidd has had 9 years over 3tpg while Payton only has had 2 years...

Big Difference

Kidd has had 4 years of over 3.5tpg, Payton has never had anything close to that high...


PS:Payton's Assist to TO ratio was better too...



And the advantages for Payton don't stop there either...

A disadvantage for Kidd is how he "hurts" teams...

He shoots at 40%...So basically anytime he tries to shoot or score, he is actually hurting his team...

Really, who would want a PG that "hurts" his own team while trying to score?



Another advantage for Payton is being able to run both a Full Court and Half Court offense, where Kidd can only lead a Full Court offense, making your offense limitied...

In the 90s, Payton ran a lot of Up Tempo Basketball, and there team was always one of the Top Teams in scoring...And then later half court, and Payton still had succes...

While Kidd...you know, isn't a good half court PG...ANd his team is usually isn't on the Tops in scoring...



There are other advantages for Payton too...

You see? There are still more...

If you'd like to know, and you have something to say back about all this...Then ask...
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Old 07-22-2006, 01:14 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
Kidd is the better player.
Thats all you have to say?

Like I said earlier

"You can believe what you want, but there is a reason why you just didn't have enough points to support Kidd"
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