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Originally Posted by chanchan05
i still believe in kidd...yes you have good points for payton...yes he scores better and defends better, and he can rebound and pass...kidd i still think is a better passer, and a better rebounder. although his scoring pales behind payton's he can defend.
what i like about him that sets him over payton is what he does to a team..not the stats he makes...iverson has great stats, but look at his team? when jkidd went into nj, he came to a team that barely made it into the playoffs...a team where he was the only change that could make a difference, where he was the ONLY good thing in the eyes of the world. the nets were a bad team which was a potential 7-8 seed in a really bad EC...you guys yourself said that the EC back then was laughable. overnight he changed that team into a 50win team that made it to the finals. yes he is overrated. yes the east was laughable...but no way i can see the payton changing the face of a franchise overnight like that when he was the same age as kidd and traded in the same situation. yes he'd turn the team into a playoff contender, but not the contender kidd did...they even lasted 6 games with a team loaded with power, the 2003 spurs...i still believe that was the best spurs team i have ever seen in my time. im still young yes, but kidd is still the better guard for me.
given the same talent at the same time, i dont think payton would make it past AI or carter then...they were too explosive, even more explosive than MJ was when payton faced him...jordan was 33, AI and VC then were like gods flying through the air making impossible shots even when you're wrapping yourself all over them so that only their arms could be seen. no, in the same situation, with the same players, i dont think payton can do it...even if he did manage to, he will end up with the same results kidd did whatever his stats.
he may not put up the numbers payton does, but something about his work ethic and his leadership turns losers and mediocrity into something great. Kmart in denver is not the allstar he is when he was with kidd...payton's teams had better players than kidd had...kidd makes players better in a way i have never seen payton being able to...payton can take a good team and players and take them far...kidd is given a bunch of nobodies and turns them to stars...
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OK...
So you valued Kidds making "teams better" over the other advantages Payton had on Kidd...
Kidd of course was a better rebounder and passer...But Payton
could do
both those well too...
Payton was a better scorer and defender....Kidd could defend, but score?
NO
Now, yes Kidd does make teams better...And he did improve the Nets...
But taking them to the NBA Finals twice was basically making to the playoffs or at best getting out of the 1st round in the western confrence...
Kidd in his 5 years of playoffs with the Suns, went out of the 1st round once, and that was against the Duncan Less Spurs...How Pathetic...Otherwise, he'd get sweept, lose in 4, lose to Payton and the Sonics, lose to Spurs WITH DUNCAN, etc.
So he comes to a pathetic east, and gets a team with the same talent level he had in Phoenix and they go to the NBA Finals past teams like Pierce's Celtics who he met at the ECF...On one of Kidd's runs, only 1 team had over 50+ WIns in the East...And another run, only like 2 did...The bottom west seeds could've made it to the Finals (They did actually, Kidd's Suns would've)
Then later, the East gets tough, teams like Pacers, Pistons, and the Heat show up...And suddenly, the Nets dissapear....When real talent comes, the Kidd's Nets look bad again....And this time Kidd even had a better starcast...He had Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson, and a couple of good role players...
Kidd's 2 Final Apperances were pathetic....
But he still gets credit for turning them around...
PS:The 33 year old Jordan was averaging 30ppg...
Now yeah, Kidd turned teams around, but Payton WON with his team period...And don't say, he had better players, because then you can use that against any champion, you can say that against Jordan, Magic, Bird, etc.
Yeah teammates do make a difference, but its how much you win that counts....Its too bad Wilkins didn't have good teammates, or he'd be remembered more...
Kidd:
10 Playoff Appearances
4 50-59 Win Teams
0 60+ Win Teams
2 NBA Finals
0 Championships
Payton;
14 Playoff Appearances
5 50-59 Win Teams
3 60+ Win Teams
3 NBA Finals
1 Championship
But thats those aren't all of Payton's advantages either...
Another thing is he was very less TO Prone...Some thing VERY IMPORTANT for a PG...
Kidd has had 9 years over 3tpg while Payton only has had 2 years...
Big Difference
Kidd has had 4 years of over 3.5tpg, Payton has never had anything close to that high...
PS:Payton's Assist to TO ratio was better too...
And the advantages for Payton don't stop there either...
A disadvantage for Kidd is how he "hurts" teams...
He shoots at 40%...So basically anytime he tries to shoot or score, he is actually hurting his team...
Really, who would want a PG that "hurts" his own team while trying to score?
Another advantage for Payton is being able to run both a Full Court and Half Court offense, where Kidd can only lead a Full Court offense, making your offense limitied...
In the 90s, Payton ran a lot of Up Tempo Basketball, and there team was always one of the Top Teams in scoring...And then later half court, and Payton still had succes...
While Kidd...you know, isn't a good half court PG...ANd his team is usually isn't on the Tops in scoring...
There are other advantages for Payton too...
You see? There are still more...
If you'd like to know, and you have something to say back about all this...Then ask...
