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Old 07-22-2006, 02:15 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by AppleNader
Gary might have the better individual talent, but if I were an NBA player I'd prefer to play with Kidd.
Its not about "preference", its about what you said...Individual talent...
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:16 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Glove_20
OK...

I didn't say they just didn't shoot 32%, I said that they don't shoot "32%-34%", while making as many 3s per game as Payton did...

It might be average to below average for a "3pt Shooter" but not for a PG period...Because some of them are at 0%...LOL



And is that all you had to say about Stockton?

EXACTLY

You got nothing more to say...

Get it in your head

Stockton is below average in rebounding...PERIOD
This is boringly idiotic. Almost no one shoots 0% (point guards, in fact, are as good at long-range shooting as any other position, don't know where that's coming from) and regardless of what you wrote GP's career average is 32%. Just keep on harping on how Stock's poor rebounding killed Utah all of those years. Hey, if Stock got 3.6, maybe they'd have beat Chicago in the Finals. Yeah!
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:18 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Glove_20
Its not about "preference", its about what you said...Individual talent...



The thread title is Gary Payton vs. Jason Kidd

Just simply stating my preference as to which player I'd rather play with if I was an NBA player. That certainly is an aspect that you can consider.
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:30 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
This is boringly idiotic. Almost no one shoots 0% (point guards, in fact, are as good at long-range shooting as any other position, don't know where that's coming from) and regardless of what you wrote GP's career average is 32%. Just keep on harping on how Stock's poor rebounding killed Utah all of those years. Hey, if Stock got 3.6, maybe they'd have beat Chicago in the Finals. Yeah!
Thats why I wrote "LOL" after the 0%...

I meant that, some can't shoot at all, a lot of "pass" 1st PGs...



I am not saying Stockton's rebounding hade too much affect on games...

My original statements were Payton had no weakness to his game...He could do it all...

Score
Pass
Rebound
Defense
etc.

Stockton was below average on rebounds...So he DOES have a weakness...Big or Small, a weakness is still a weakness...


And as for Payton, I am pretty sure he is average, and he used be a horrible 3pt shooter at the beggining of his career, but in his prime, he could shoot 34%...Which what I was looking at...

32% might be below average for a 3pt Shooter, but for a PG? I don't think so, accounting all the ones that can't shoot at all...

30% is about average then...


Payton was a bad 3pt shooter early in his career...Which screws his %s, but in his prime, he was good...

A quote

"Now, the way he shoots the 3, you can tell it's something he put a lot of time into,"
-Isiah Thomas on Payton's 3pt Shooting
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:31 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by AppleNader


The thread title is Gary Payton vs. Jason Kidd

Just simply stating my preference as to which player I'd rather play with if I was an NBA player. That certainly is an aspect that you can consider.
But thats just a "preference"

I would rather play with Payton, because he has more talent and gives more chances of winning with his complete game...
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:25 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
And Gary Payton had no weaknesses to his game...

He is the only PG in NBA History to not have any weakness to his game

Mo Cheeks. Walt Frazier? I'll assume that was just an oversight.

On to Kidd vs Payton. Kidd is the definition of all-around player, but Payton did everything well as well. And while Kidd is a great defender, Payton is the best defensive PG I've ever seen (better than Cheeks; better than DJ).

It's really close between them, though. One thing I should point out. As big a reputation that Kidd has for winning because of New Jersey, he could not get out of the first round in Phoenix. He only beat a Duncan-less Spurs. I remember him getting ripped for not being able to lead his team anywhere.

To be fair, he wasn't favored to win those series, but his team had some talent. Other PG's have kept the Suns in the playoffs. They've only missed the playoffs twice since 1989. Both with Stephon Marbury, but in one of those seasons, their two leading scorers missed significant time.
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:35 PM   #127
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Mo Cheeks. Walt Frazier? I'll assume that was just an oversight.

On to Kidd vs Payton. Kidd is the definition of all-around player, but Payton did everything well as well. And while Kidd is a great defender, Payton is the best defensive PG I've ever seen (better than Cheeks; better than DJ).

It's really close between them, though. One thing I should point out. As big a reputation that Kidd has for winning because of New Jersey, he could not get out of the first round in Phoenix. He only beat a Duncan-less Spurs. I remember him getting ripped for not being able to lead his team anywhere.

To be fair, he wasn't favored to win those series, but his team had some talent. Other PG's have kept the Suns in the playoffs. They've only missed the playoffs twice since 1989. Both with Stephon Marbury, but in one of those seasons, their two leading scorers missed significant time.
Yeah...I said the same thing, up above, that Kidd's 2 Final Trips were a joke...


Read my post on the top of this page...His team had the same talent as he did in NJ...

Cheeks could not shoot the 3 (25%)

And Frazier had no longetivity...He started getting hurt at age 32 and was unable to do anything after that, playing 51, 12 and 3 games a year...He lacked longetivity, that was his weakness
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:39 PM   #128
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Kidd made kenyon martin an all star which is pretty freakin impressive, i'll go with kidd even though i never liked kidd and i did like payton, payton might be more enjoyable because of his scoring and stellar defense, but kidd is the better point guard. as to who i'd rather have on my team, i don't know neither, are really winners at least on the big stage. so toss the dice see and see what happens
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:42 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
Yeah...I said the same thing, up above, that Kidd's 2 Final Trips were a joke...


Read my post on the top of this page...His team had the same talent as he did in NJ...

Cheeks could not shoot the 3 (25%)

And Frazier had no longetivity...He started getting hurt at age 32 and was unable to do anything after that, playing 51, 12 and 3 games a year...He lacked longetivity, that was his weakness

Ugh man,I hate to do this, but Payton has the SAME weakness, longetivity. His production has been crap since he left Seattle...
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:51 PM   #130
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Ugh man,I hate to do this, but Payton has the SAME weakness, longetivity. His production has been crap since he left Seattle...
By longetivity I meant that Frazier couldn't play any more games after that...

At age 32 he only played 51, than 12 games, and then 3...

But anyways

But Payton was selected to the All-Star team at Age 34...

That is tough to do...Kidd is only like 32 or 33 and he stopped making them like 2 years ago...

Isiah Thomas retired at age 32

Magic Johnson 1st retired at age 31

Oscar Robertson's last All-Star game was at age 33...



You see where I am getting at? It is TOUGH to make an All-Star game at age 34...Guys like Isiah, they were 2 years into retirment, and all the other Greats, they too could not play any longer...


Payton has had excellent longetivity to play at All-Star level at age 34
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:52 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by barry
Kidd made kenyon martin an all star which is pretty freakin impressive, i'll go with kidd even though i never liked kidd and i did like payton, payton might be more enjoyable because of his scoring and stellar defense, but kidd is the better point guard. as to who i'd rather have on my team, i don't know neither, are really winners at least on the big stage. so toss the dice see and see what happens
This is your 1st post...

You should have read the rest of the thread...

Read the 1st post I did on this page at least...
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:53 PM   #132
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Payton had the better talent, but I never really considered him to control a game and make an intangible impact. He was better in Jason in so many aspects, but as far as a lasting impact on his team and dictating action, he didn't do it as much as Jason did. I' prefer Jason.
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Old 07-22-2006, 04:20 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
Cheeks could not shoot the 3 (25%)

That wasn't really a weakness. Cheeks was a great shooter, he just never extended his range out past the 3-point line. 3-point percentages go up when you have more opportunities to take them within the flow of the offense. Chucking isn't a good idea, but when you only take a few 3's, your forced three drag down your percentage.

Payton wasn't a good 3-point shooter until they brought the line in. Then when they expanded it back out, he was used to taking a lot of 3's and was able to keep a high percentage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
That is tough to do...Kidd is only like 32 or 33 and he stopped making them like 2 years ago...

Isiah Thomas retired at age 32

Magic Johnson 1st retired at age 31

Oscar Robertson's last All-Star game was at age 33...

Kidd can still play. I wouldn't be shocked to see him make the all-star team. The East is loaded with guards, so there would have to be a few injuries (or Iverson getting traded to the West).

Oscar Robertson played in the 60s, so it's not fair to compare his longevity. He played between 44-46 minutes a night. They played more pre-season games and exhibition games. They played under some horrible conditions in crappy places like Hershey. The equipment wasn't as good, there weren't the quality trainers there are today. If you watch any of those early 70's Bucks games, Robertson's legs are completely shot. It's not his fault, owners just ran their players into the ground in those days. That was before the Players Association, which Robertson played a big part in creating.

Robertson's weakness is his range anyway. He was a great shooter from mid-range and in, but if you could keep him farther out, he couldn't shoot.

And we both know why Magic retired at the age he did. That's not longevity.
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Old 07-22-2006, 04:23 PM   #134
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Yeah...

My point just was...Payton had longetivity

Making the All-Star team at ages 32, 33 and 34...That takes longetivity...

Not anyone can do that...

Like someone said on this board...At Kidd's age right now, Payton was putting up 23ppg and 8apg...
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Old 07-22-2006, 04:26 PM   #135
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I don't understand the point of this thread. The OP just did it to defend Payton? That's ridiculous. If you know the answer to your question (atleast your own answer), what's the point?
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