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Old 10-10-2007, 06:22 PM   #16
IversonMelo2K7
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Starks
MJ cut his own career short. Krause was being bullied into paying MJ on a year -to-year basis 20+ million. Now, it was the most worthwhile $20+ ever paid, but Pippen was about ot aks forthe same type of deal. it wasn't Krause's money to spend.

The negotiations were like basketball...MJ read and reacted. Yes he cut his own career short, but that was because he didn't want to be part of a rebuilding team. He still wanted to play and would have had Krause complied with his wishes.

Quote:
So he was without MJ, soon to be without Pippen or spend $40 mill on 2 players...and then start putting together the other peices. Meanwhile, the team was aging, the retirement threats from Jackson and MJ kept getting louder and louder.

Let me reiterate...there would have been no retirement threats had the team and front office been on the same page. Its called a direct correlation. I think this is the part you are missing bro, you don't seem to realize that Krause essentially pushed Jordan, Jackson, and Pippen out the door.

Quote:
In your theory, keep everyone together, pay whateverthey ask and they'll keep winning title after title. Its a fairy tale. It would not have kept rolling for years...and even IF Krause robbed us of 1 more year of Bulls magic, do we take away the great years of the Bulls that he built. Come on - they had obviously peaked. You werren't getting 3 more titles out of those legs.

There are no guarantees, obviously. But seeing as MJ put up 23/5/5 in 2002 with the Wiz, I think Jordan had plenty left. You know he would have done everything and anything it took. The unkown is what motivated MJ anyway. Obviously there would be no more three-peats but another title certianally would not have been out of the question and more trips to the Finals were inevidable (once again, lets look at the teams from the east- 99 Knicks, 00 Pacers, 01 Sixers 02 and 03 Nets---all very beatable). Plus, free agents would have flocked to the Bulls to fill out the roster had Phil, MJ and Pip returned.

Quote:
MJ retires -- any other gM goes drectly into panic mode, signs the biggest name they can for the most money they can. Krause, because the organization was strong, was able to sign Pete myers and the team found its way into the deep 2nd round. You all want to give it all to Pippen, gotta give some to Krause for not tearing the joint down, or tunring over the franchise.

I don't think anyone is going to go into panic mode when they were the one who made the decision.: MJ retireing was what Krause WANTED. The day he announced it Krause m a s t u r b a t e d numerious times over what lay ahead.


Quote:
Or maybe, he is a forward thinking GM who knows that at some point you have ot break down and rebuild and you can rebuild easier if you do it before you get locked up into long-term contracts with aging players (Billups)...and its easier to do it full-throttle as opposed ot half-assed (Knicks).

He started his forward thinking way too soon.


Quote:
If MJ still wanted to play there were 29 teams ready to sign him.

And the Wizards did. Just not right away.

Last edited by IversonMelo2K7 : 10-10-2007 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 10-10-2007, 08:57 PM   #17
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

So lets forget that he:
Drafted Pippen late in the draft from a small school
Drafted Ho Grant late in the draft from a small school
Traded Oakley for Bill Cartwright (over MJ's objection) to buil the first title team
He also found B.J. Armstron
He also gave P.Jax his first head coaching job (1st head coaching job)

Lets forget that he:
found Kukoc before 90% of GM's even thought to look in Europe
took a chance on Rodman when everyone else had give nup
found Luc Longley from the University of New Mexico.
Brought in Ron Harper - without giving anything up
Brought in Jud Buchler (who nobody heard of); Steve Kerr; Bill Wennington

Lets forget about the ability to recognize both superstar talent (Pippen) and role player talent -- fit all theright peices around.

Lets forget about all that - and the 6 titles (remember, he was there since 1985 - so everyone who was there for the 6 titles - save MJ - were his findings)

Lets also forget that someohow, he kept a tema together for 6 titles without getting killed in cap space. Sure he short-changed some players salaries -- but he won 6 freaking titles without violating the much tougher cap rules from 15 years ago.

Lets forget all of that -- and call him sh!t -- why?

...Right because the players didn't like him. The players liked to throw their weight around in an attempt to get him fired....which eventually worked.

NO GM currently in the game can hold a candle to the finds, the cleverness, the drafting or the FA signings of Jerry Krause.

NONE.

"Bu-bu-but MJ didn't like him."

MJ thought he could do Krause's job better than him. As we've seen - he cannot. MJ to Krause as a GM is the same as Krause to MJ as a basketball player.

"Bu bu but Pippen didn;t like him."

Pippen was pissed at the wrong guy, Pippen should've been pissed at his agent for getting him a sh!t deal. All Krause did was abide by it.

"Bu bu but Everyone retired because of him" --

that's BS. Everyone left because MJ retired. MJ retired because he was done - not done as in no game done as in had enough of it--. He never liked Krause, why in 98 was it finally enough? He liked hin enough to sign $20 mill deal every year.

If MJ wanted to play, he could've called any team in the league and named his price. Krause/PJax/Pippen all seeing their meal ticket was gone all moved on. Krause did the only responsible thing -- blow it up and start to rebuild.

But because MJ - everyone's hero - had done such a good job bad mouthing the GM who built champions, no one wanted to go.

I'll take Krause as my GM any day every day.
Praise Krause.

Last edited by John Starks : 10-10-2007 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:02 PM   #18
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Default Re: Jerry Krause



"McHale still has a job? Isiah has a job? Billy King has a job? The dumbass in LA still has a job...and 6 titles later, I'm a baseball scout."

Last edited by John Starks : 10-11-2007 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:07 PM   #19
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

...and for those of you whp want to tell me how easy it was to build a title around MJ - think about the great players of this generation and how many GM's just CANNOT figure it out.

KG, AI, Kobe -- all great talents -- and yet somehow, these GM's, who are nowhere near as hated as Krause -- can'tr seem to get it together.

Maybe it took some kind of skill and ability to get the right pieces. Maybe?

The only GM today who can even talk to Krause is Buford. The rest of them should be sitting in a freaking class taught by Krause and getting him whatever he wants to eat whenever he asks for it -- and not give him sh!t about it.



"Can somebody PLEASE bring me a piece of cake for Mr. Krause"

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Old 10-10-2007, 09:07 PM   #20
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

Krause had the luxury of having the game's greatest player on his team. He did make a couple nice moves by bringing in Pippen and Kukoc. Lets not go too far though, John Starks. In addition to what we were arguing about before, please take a close look at the moves he made post-MJ. Almost all were utter failures. From 98-03 the Bulls were the worst team in the NBA. As soon as he left and Paxon took over they finally began to regain some respect. Coincidence?
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:19 PM   #21
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

That's what the NBA needs right now. A tough minded GM.
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:23 PM   #22
John Starks
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

Quote:
Originally Posted by IversonMelo2K7
He did make a couple nice moves by bringing in Pippen and Kukoc.

A couple of nice moves? Dude built 6 title teams and he only made "a couple of nice moves". I love that. An Iverson fan should appreciate how hard it is to build a good team and keep it together...he made a "couple of nice moves". Nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IversonMelo2K7
In addition to what we were arguing about before, please take a close look at the moves he made post-MJ. Almost all were utter failures. From 98-03 the Bulls were the worst team in the NBA. As soon as he left and Paxon took over they finally began to regain some respect. Coincidence?

...but lets forget about those "couple of nice moves" and the 6 titles he won in 13 years as the GM and only worry about his last 4 years.

ok - lets do that.

Drafted Elton Brand, Ron Artest, Ty Chandler, Eddy Curry, Jamal Crawford - so in 4 years, he drafted 5 NBA starters...and Artest and Crawford were late picks.

He also brought in Brad Miller exactly one year before Miller "exploded".

He brought in Mercer, who was the only one who would take Chicago's money.

It seems clear in 2001 - at the very end - the losing was becoming too much and he had to make a very un-Krause-like move, trading Miller and Artest for J.Rose.

You want to get all worked up about the Brand trade, it was clearly a mistake -- but how many playoff appearances has Brand made -- 1-- maybe Krause knew something about Brand's limitations.

...and one other thing -- rebuilding is hard as hell. No one can rebuild a 6 time champ in 4 years. It takes much longer.
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:30 PM   #23
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Default Re: Jerry Krause



"I'm gonna make sure the players like me...how much you want Rashard? Know what here's a checkbook - you just fill it out. Here come the titles baby!"
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:30 PM   #24
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

Um, why are you listing moves like bringing in Mercer as positives? Mercer was a complete waste of money, just like Eddie Robinson. He spend 70 million on those 2 combined. He actually did well to draft Artest and sign Miller, but then he goes and trades them both for Jalen Rose and his max contract.: :

Curry, Chandler, and Crawford didn't contribute anything to the Bulls.
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:37 PM   #25
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

Quote:
Originally Posted by IversonMelo2K7
Um, why are you listing moves like bringing in Mercer as positives? Mercer was a complete waste of money, just like Eddie Robinson. He spend 70 million on those 2 combined. He actually did well to draft Artest and sign Miller, but then he goes and trades them both for Jalen Rose and his max contract.

I didn;t list Mercer as a positive. Just listed as one of his big post-MJ moves and explained that Mercer was the only one who would take the money.

I think at the end he was forced into making some win-now moves (Rose) as the rebuilding was not working and teams lose patience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IversonMelo2K7
Curry, Chandler, and Crawford didn't contribute anything to the Bulls.

Curry and Chandler led the Bulls ot their first playoff appearance in 6 years - which is exactly the same number of playoff appearances as Brand...then Chand was there for a 2nd one. One more than Brand.

...and again, rebuilding after a period of great success is extremely hard. Give the dude a break. How many guys draft 5 NBA starters in 4 years?
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:38 PM   #26
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Default Re: Jerry Krause



"Its very easy to build around a superstar -- it only takes a couple of nice moves - first let me try to sign any of my free agents"
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:47 PM   #27
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Default Re: Jerry Krause



"I think this year I'll trade my more talented, less expensive players for less talented more expensive player. Man this job is easy...as long as the players like me"
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:52 PM   #28
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Default Re: Jerry Krause



"I harass women, I haven't led a Knick team to 40 wins, I trade high draft picks, I take on rediculous contracts, but the players like me. Isn't that what you really want from a GM?"
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Old 10-11-2007, 04:08 PM   #29
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

I cannot beleive only one person wanted to take up the anti-Krause fight.

Board is losing its fastball.
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Old 10-11-2007, 04:55 PM   #30
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Starks
I cannot beleive only one person wanted to take up the anti-Krause fight.

Board is losing its fastball.
Couple of things wrong John Starks:

-He didn't draft Pippen late. Pippen was drafted 5th by the Sonics on draft day. The Bulls traded 8th Pick Olden Polynice and future draft considerations for Pippen on draft day.

-And MJ retired because Krause would not resign Phil Jackson and keep the Bulls together. But had there been no lockout that year, Jordan might've come back.

Could look in to more of your arguments and prove them wrong. But maybe for another time.

Edit: Also remember, most of Jordan's "great" supporting cast did not succeed elsewhere in the post-Jordan era. Even Pippen. Who's to say Jordan didn't make them look better?

Last edited by Make It Rain : 10-11-2007 at 04:58 PM.
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