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Old 10-11-2007, 05:07 PM   #31
John Starks
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

Quote:
Originally Posted by Make It Rain
-He didn't draft Pippen late. Pippen was drafted 5th by the Sonics on draft day. The Bulls traded 8th Pick Olden Polynice and future draft considerations for Pippen on draft day. ?

So he turned an 8th pick into a 5th pick and abused the Sonics GM in the process.

What a loser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Make It Rain
-And MJ retired because Krause would not resign Phil Jackson and keep the Bulls together. But had there been no lockout that year, Jordan might've come back.

MJ could've ended the lockout whenever he wanted by announcing his return IF the owners signed on the line.

This thought that Krause wanted to break up the Bulls, against everyone else's wishes is a load. We wouldn't beleive it if MJ didn't spew it -- it just doesn't make any amount of sense...sure he would'nt pay Jackson and Pippen and MJ the world for them to return, but by demanding the world...they make it impossible to be signed.

We all want fiscal responsibility, but when its exercised we don't blame the players makinbg outrageus demands -- we blame the management for not meeting them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Make It Rain
Could look in to more of your arguments and prove them wrong. But maybe for another time.

I appreciate your laziness sparing me embarassment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Make It Rain
Edit: Also remember, most of Jordan's "great" supporting cast did not succeed elsewhere in the post-Jordan era. Even Pippen. Who's to say Jordan didn't make them look better?

Or maybe, the players were the right pieces for that team and not super-talents in their own right.

Recognizing the right peices and not just throwing talent together...I'd consider that a pretty big strength in a GM.


---IS THERE NOBODY ON THIS BOARD TO EVEN CHALLENGE ME?--
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Old 10-11-2007, 05:09 PM   #32
Make It Rain
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

I don't have the time to construct an argument. But someone will. You're so wrong, it's very easy. Loki would embarrass you if he wanted.
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Old 10-11-2007, 05:10 PM   #33
Jimmy2k8
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

Question...


Did Kevin Garnett say that he didn't want to play for the Bulls after the bad treatment of MJ and Scottie Pippen? Just curious..because he was a bulls fan.
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Old 10-11-2007, 05:16 PM   #34
John Starks
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

Quote:
Originally Posted by Make It Rain
I don't have the time to construct an argument. But someone will. You're so wrong, it's very easy. Loki would embarrass you if he wanted.

As we sit around waiting for someone to embarass me, let me make my position clear:

J.Krause is better than 95% of the GM's currently working. I'd hire him over anyone except Buford and Colangelo and maybe I'd keep Thorn, Dumars, and Grunfeld instead of firing them for Krause.

The only counter so far is that he broke up the very dynasty he built against the good honest wishes of the sweet innocent players he robbed....and that dynasty had 5 more good years left.
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Old 10-11-2007, 05:17 PM   #35
John Starks
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy2k8
Question...


Did Kevin Garnett say that he didn't want to play for the Bulls after the bad treatment of MJ and Scottie Pippen? Just curious..because he was a bulls fan.

I don't know if tis a quote or if it was the perception of why Kg and many others wouldn't take the Bulls money post- MJ
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Old 10-12-2007, 01:51 PM   #36
John Starks
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

Can't get 4 pages on oneo f the most reviled people in the sport.

Sad day.

By the way - Kobe sux.

Watch out now!
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Old 10-12-2007, 02:05 PM   #37
IversonMelo2K7
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

The discussion has to have a direction to continue. I'm not seeing one here. I have established that you are a pretty good poster with solid knowledge who is simply overvaluing Krause's moves (and there were some good ones) and seems in denial of the fact that forcing the game's greatest player into early retirement is reprehensible and shall not be forgiven. Also letting your own ego override the team you work for and its fans is inappropriate and pathetic for a GM.
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Old 10-12-2007, 02:39 PM   #38
John Starks
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

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Originally Posted by IversonMelo2K7
The discussion has to have a direction to continue. .I'm not seeing one here.

It only has direction if and opposing point of view is argued. Anti-Krausers come in - diregard what is good accentuate the bad and leave it at that.

That's not direction, its selective memory via MJ worship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IversonMelo2K7
I have established that you are a pretty good poster with solid knowledge who is simply overvaluing Krause's moves (and there were some good ones)

Overvaluing the moves the led to 6 titles. How does one over-value those moves? If Krause's moves do not merit over-valuing, whose moves do? What GM is making thesegreat moves >> Krause's moves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IversonMelo2K7
seems in denial of the fact that forcing the game's greatest player into early retirement is reprehensible and shall not be forgiven.

Why can't we get past MJ's spin? Were the bUlls the only team he could play for? So even if Krause simply refused ot resign him to glorify his own ego (after 3 years of $20+ million contracts per) -- why would MJ ever be forced into retirement?

It makes no sense. If MJ wanted to keep playing, he would have kept playing. He didn't need Krause's permission to do so.

What makes more sense is 1) MJ was done. He didn' want ot play anymore. He had done everything -- but since he loathed Krasue, he gave him a pR parting shot on the way out; or 2) Each of pip, MJ, and P.Jax demanded a deal from Krause so unreasonable that either he agrees and they laugh to multiple different banks, or they walk and its his fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IversonMelo2K7
Also letting your own ego override the team you work for and its fans is inappropriate and pathetic for a GM.

What does it have to do with his ego? He paid. He paid MJ a new cotnract every year to keep playing. If his ego ran the show he would've told mJ to take a wall after the first (selfish - and while under contract) retirement. If his ego ran the show he would've brought in a different big name free agent every year, instead of less glamorous set pieces...What a bigger headline 'Krause Gets Kerr" or "Krause Gets Richmond"

I think he showed remarkable restriant. After pippen-Grant it was all small moves until Rodman. All small working moves.

How about the restraint he showed in signing Pete Myers to replace MJ. Could've gone out and spent a fortune on the wrong guy to replace the irreplaceable. Instead he understood the team and what the team needed and got the right guy. Amazing.

And if he had an ego it was well-deserved - He used and abused every GM in the league to win 6 titles.

Last edited by John Starks : 10-12-2007 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 10-13-2007, 07:33 AM   #39
Ryoga Hibiki
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

Part I - jordon era

He did a great job, say what you want but nobody else ever won building around a shooting guard. He drafted great, found the right role players, traded for his team's need. jordon was a great player, but could kill the confidence of new players, wanted to play GM and costantly bashed him and his decisions to the media. Cartwright, who was traded for jordon's buddy Oakley, admitted he once nearly punched him in the locker room and felt he could never make it if he wasn't a 30 yo veteran at the time. Krause did a poor job at managing jordon's ego, but that was not an easy task at all, as we're seeing even now.
Being booed at a championship parade is unprecedented, and Krause has all the media against him as that famous "Organisations win championships" shows: the right quote was "Players ALONE don't win championships, organisations do", and it was meant to thank all his people from coaches to ballboys. It wasn't even original (I think I heard Jerry West stating something similar), but somehow it turned out as him saying he was more important than jordon.
Then, in '96 and '97 he didn't want to rebuild from scratch, he trying to avoid what happened to the Celtics acquiring young talent for the veterans, instead of loosing them for nothing. Contend, but with a younger team.
He couldn't, so he really had to start from scratch in '99.
Also, please don't tell me he broke the dinasty: only two people could do it, Jerry Reinsdorf and micheal jordon. You're out of touch if you think he has half the power needed to show jordon the door.

Part II - rebuilding years

He was unlucky, he made mistakes, but imo he made some right moves that just didn't work out.
He was dominated by the idea of building a championship team for the future, avoiding the possibility of being stuck with a not so good team without picks and flexibility. All his moves went into that direction.
We know he got cought by the '99 CBA, the max contracts, restricted FA so his first strategy went to the toilet while losing nearly two years in the process.
He had some decent talent in guys like Brand, Artest and Miller (and the last two weren't top picks), but he gave them away because he thought he couldn't build a real winner around them and so he did bet on Curry and Chandler. These two disappointed, and that's why he was fired, but you think the Bulls would have ever achieved anything with Brand, Artest and Miller as their three best players? Playoffs, but the goal was to contend.
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Old 10-13-2007, 07:36 AM   #40
El Kabong
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy2k8
Question...


Did Kevin Garnett say that he didn't want to play for the Bulls after the bad treatment of MJ and Scottie Pippen? Just curious..because he was a bulls fan.
Yea, I remember it was either him or Tim Duncan who said they turned down the Bulls money because of Krause. But everyone turned them down that year. Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett. Tim Thomas was gonna go there, but then Milwaukee convinced him to sign. So they wasted all there money on Ron Mercer, Eddie Robinson and Jalen Rose.

The whole MJ vs Krause thing is driven by there egos. Krause thinks he is responsible for the Bulls titles, he was the one that put the team together, he's the engineer behind the entire machine, the players are mearly the cogs that turn the engine. While MJ thinks that he, the players and coaching staff are responsible.

The dismantling of the 98 Bulls team was simple. He said he wouldn't resign Jackson knowing that Jordan wouldn't play for anyone else. So he gets off the hook because he can say "Oh, Jackson didn't want to come back so I couldn't convince Jordan to stay." The entire thing was an exercise in Krauses ego. Because he wanted to prove that HE had built a championship dynasty and he could do it again, that Micheal Jordan was not responsible for everything they had accomplished.
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Old 10-13-2007, 09:12 AM   #41
Jimmy2k8
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong

The dismantling of the 98 Bulls team was simple. He said he wouldn't resign Jackson knowing that Jordan wouldn't play for anyone else. So he gets off the hook because he can say "Oh, Jackson didn't want to come back so I couldn't convince Jordan to stay." The entire thing was an exercise in Krauses ego. Because he wanted to prove that HE had built a championship dynasty and he could do it again, that Micheal Jordan was not responsible for everything they had accomplished.



Well, it looks like the Bulls are on their way to a possible dynasty. I still can't believe that Krause traded Brand, Miller, and Artest away when these guys were already good enough.


anyway, I also thought he destroyed the team because he thought the team was aging.
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Old 10-13-2007, 09:22 AM   #42
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Default Re: Jerry Krause

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy2k8
Well, it looks like the Bulls are on their way to a possible dynasty. I still can't believe that Krause traded Brand, Miller, and Artest away when these guys were already good enough.


anyway, I also thought he destroyed the team because he thought the team was aging.
Its true, that was part of the reason, he didn't want them to wind up like the Boston Celtics did after Bird, McHale and Parish left, but the way he went about it was completely wrong. The entire thing was mostly motivated by ego and greed.
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