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Old 07-22-2006, 02:04 PM   #16
Glove_20
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I think that is more of..."Pure PG"

A "Pure PG" all he needs to is be able to pass basically and shoot high %s when he tries to score...

But PG can be different...
I'd say Payton

Stockton is the better "Pure PG"...But that doesn't mean he is better than Payton


Really, what does Stockton have on Payton besides passing?

Stockton was the better passer...And....

Thats it...

Payton was the better scorer, defender, rebounder...

And he had large advantages in defending and rebounding...And a pretty large advantage in scoring too...

Yeah, Stockton has a good advantage in passing, but thats about it...



Payton is the better player
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:27 PM   #17
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Yeah, Stockton has a good advantage in passing, but thats about it...

And steals. Payton lead the league in steals 1 time in his career and was top 10 in steals 9 years.

Stackton lead the league in steals 2 times and was top 10 in steals 15 years.

Big difference.

Stacton was in the top ten in efficiency for 10 years. Gary Payton was top ten in efficiency for 5 years.

Big difference too.
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:32 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
Really, what does Stockton have on Payton besides passing?

Stockton was the better passer...And....

...Shooting. If you think that matters much. And Stockton was a much better passer and was very consistant.
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:37 PM   #19
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And steals. Payton lead the league in steals 1 time in his career and was top 10 in steals 9 years.

Stackton lead the league in steals 2 times and was top 10 in steals 15 years.

Big difference.

Stacton was in the top ten in efficiency for 10 years. Gary Payton was top ten in efficiency for 5 years.

Big difference too.
And what are steals a part of? DEFENSE


And Payton had a BIG advantage on that...
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:38 PM   #20
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...Shooting. If you think that matters much. And Stockton was a much better passer and was very consistant.
Yeah your right...Shooting (Even though it is a part of scoring...)
But I'll give you that...


If your going to say shooting, I might as well say, Payton also had an advantage in driving in and post game...
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:42 PM   #21
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Yeah, when you're a PG, passing doesn't matter, right Glove?

If you're "a better passer", which Stockton was by a MILE (think Marbury vs. Kidd) that can make up for an inability to guard taller players, less scoring ability, and... that's it.

Stockton was more clutch, a much better passer, much more careful with the ball, a much better shooter, much more efficient, got more steals... but most importantly of all, he could make everyone else on the floor a star. Payton never did this. Payton got 8 assists the same way Marbury got 8 assists: by dominating the ball until he found someone in scoring position. Stockton got his ridiculous assist numbers by truly igniting the offense, not just by having the ball in his hands all the time, but by truly having eyes in the back of his head and a sixth sense for setting up teammates.
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:58 PM   #22
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Stockton had the better career and was the better player.
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:59 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
Yeah, when you're a PG, passing doesn't matter, right Glove?

If you're "a better passer", which Stockton was by a MILE (think Marbury vs. Kidd) that can make up for an inability to guard taller players, less scoring ability, and... that's it.

Stockton was more clutch, a much better passer, much more careful with the ball, a much better shooter, much more efficient, got more steals... but most importantly of all, he could make everyone else on the floor a star. Payton never did this. Payton got 8 assists the same way Marbury got 8 assists: by dominating the ball until he found someone in scoring position. Stockton got his ridiculous assist numbers by truly igniting the offense, not just by having the ball in his hands all the time, but by truly having eyes in the back of his head and a sixth sense for setting up teammates.
Passing does matter...It is the most important thing for a PG....

But does defense not matter? Does scoring not matter?

Defense and Scoring are 2 VERY important categories no matter what position...

Passing is important than both of them individually, but both of them combined?

And lets not forget rebounding...Payton was a MUCH better rebounder than Stockton...Stockton's best was 3.3rpg, while Payton's best was 6.5rpg...

Both players have had similar team success, and both have been VERY DURABLE...(If anyone has the edge in durability, its Payton)

Payton has been less TO Prone...Important for a PG...

But it really seems like Passing is the only advantage for Stockton (And shooting if you want to count that)
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:00 PM   #24
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Stockton was more clutch, a much better passer, much more careful with the ball, a much better shooter, much more efficient, got more steals... but most importantly of all, he could make everyone else on the floor a star. Payton never did this. Payton got 8 assists the same way Marbury got 8 assists: by dominating the ball until he found someone in scoring position. Stockton got his ridiculous assist numbers by truly igniting the offense, not just by having the ball in his hands all the time, but by truly having eyes in the back of his head and a sixth sense for setting up teammates.

Pretty much agreed on everything.
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:07 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
And what are steals a part of? DEFENSE


And Payton had a BIG advantage on that...

No. Steals help the offense more than they help the defense.

Even though Stockton wasn't known as a gambler, he would still miss at times and get burned. A steal is a defensive stop, but it's also an offensive fast break.

Good defenders disrupt passing lanes and are great at ball denial (see Gary Payton). But steals don't make good defense.
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:10 PM   #26
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Pretend both players are in their prime:

Payton can play much better D

Payton is quicker

Payton can post up most other PGs

Stockton is a better passer

Stockton can shoot better from the perimeter

Stockton is more team oriented (ie get everyone involved)

I think maybe and just maybe, Payton is better, because of the defense and the ability to score off the penetration and post up.

For a season though Stockton may make my team better, but one game do or die I will take the glove baybee
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Old 07-22-2006, 04:09 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by SixerFan03
No. Steals help the offense more than they help the defense.

Even though Stockton wasn't known as a gambler, he would still miss at times and get burned. A steal is a defensive stop, but it's also an offensive fast break.

Good defenders disrupt passing lanes and are great at ball denial (see Gary Payton). But steals don't make good defense.
True...

But Payton was pretty good at getting steals too...
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Old 07-22-2006, 04:39 PM   #28
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Payton's Prime was from 1995-2003

Stockton's was from 1989-1997...


They only met in the playoffs one during that period...

In 1996, the WCF...

Lets see how they compared head to head...This is the best time, since they were both in their primes, All-Stars, All-NBAs, and its the playoffs, WCFs, both teams were evenly matched too...


Game 1:
John Stockton
2/10 4pts 7ast 2reb 1stl

Gary Payton
8/16 21pts 7ast 4reb 3stl


Game 2:
John Stockton
5/8 11pts 7ast 0reb 1stl

Gary Payton
7/16 18pts 8ast 2reb 4stl


Game 3:
John Stockton
2/9 7pts 6ast 2reb 0stl

Gary Payton
11/21 25pts 3ast 6reb 1stl


Game 4:
John Stockton
3/9 7pts 8ast 3reb 3stl

Gary Payton
7/17 19pts 6ast 4reb 0stl


Game 5:
John Stockton
1/6 4pts 6ast 4reb 2stl

Gary Payton
11/17 31pts 6ast 5reb 2stl


Game 6:
John Stockton
5/11 14pts 12ast 2reb 1stl

Gary Payton
3/7 10pts 7ast 9reb 0stl


Game 7:
John Stockton
9/15 22pts 7ast 8reb 4stl

Gary Payton
9/17 21pts 5ast 6reb 1stl



TOTALS

John Stockton

27/68 39.7% 9.8ppg 7.6apg 3.0rpg 1.7spg 3-4

Gary Payton

56/111 50.4% 20.7ppg 6.0apg 5.1rpg 1.6spg 4-3


Summary:

So here we are...Prime Stockton vs. Prime Payton...Both teams evenly matched...Both teams won more than 60 games...The deepest stage of the Western Confrence...

Gary Payton SHUTS DOWN Stockton...Stockton's season average was 15ppg, 11apg, and 54% shooting...

He shoots below 40%, and Payton holds him below 10ppg...And he wasn't getting his passes going either, his 11apg went down to only 7-8apg...

Payton on the other end had season averages of 19ppg, 7.5apg, and 48%...
Payton scored on Stockton with ease, and did even better than his season...But obviously no team wants to pass too much against Stockton...He kept Payton from getting too many assists...But Payton makes that up with his 5rpg per game average...

Oh yeah, Prime Payton vs. Prime Stockton series, Payton wins 4-3......Sonics won the series with Payton...And rembember both these teams had successfull seasons, but Payton's Sonics were better than Stockton's Jazz......Basically, Payton beats Stockton in a team game since both teams had the same amount of talent, and the edge anyways on teammates, goes to Stockton...


Head to Head Winner: PAYTON

Last edited by Glove_20 : 07-22-2006 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 07-22-2006, 05:26 PM   #29
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And I am not saying Stockton isn't as good...

Payton is only a little better, but he is clearly better...



Stockton is probably the closest PG right behind Payton...Even closer than Kidd...


Stockton was a great PG, and the "purest" PG of All-Time...
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Old 07-23-2006, 01:39 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
And I am not saying Stockton isn't as good...

Payton is only a little better, but he is clearly better...



Stockton is probably the closest PG right behind Payton...Even closer than Kidd...


Stockton was a great PG, and the "purest" PG of All-Time...

I'd take Kidd and Payton over Stockton
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