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Old 07-23-2006, 03:52 AM   #31
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I KNOW GP had Kemp but that was only for a short while but Stockton had the second best PF ever (Duncan first, stfu if you dont agree) so its hard too tell if stockton would have been dif player without a dominate player. So i give my nod to GP who was oftenly rated the second best nba player behind MJ in his prime.
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Old 07-23-2006, 05:06 AM   #32
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I can only repeat, Stockton is clearly the better PG, he has a huge edge in playmaking, which is the main task of a PG. It doesn't really matter that Payton beats him in nearly every other aspect of the game (except shooting), the fact that Stockton is maybe the best playmaker of all time (Magic may be better) makes him more valuable. Just look what a Steve Nash led team achieves, and Nash wins MVP trophys with stats that are inferior to those of Stockton's prime.
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Old 07-23-2006, 09:10 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by RainierBeachPoet
who was a better point guard over the span of their careers: gp or john stockton?

please consider the following areas:

stats
championships/championship runs
intangibles
running their perspective teams

please dont let the following dominate:

personality
homerism


good discussion!

payton 20 is my dog--- gary defender to the end. i particularly liked the head to head comparison with gp and stock in their primes. i know how gritty stockton was and how i totally respected the jazz game and battles with the sonics.

although i am a sonic diehard, i try to be as objective as possible.

with regards to my original post:

stockton's stats with assists and steals are unquestionably the best all time. gary's are up there too in all time stats:

ranks 23rd in points (21,455)
ranks 6th in assists (8,765)
ranks 3rd in steals (2,402)

he also has over 5,000 rebounds in his career!

gp was asked to be a scoring pg whereas stockton was a pure pg

the championships runs are a wash...

intangibles: gp's defense; stocktons leadership on the jazz; gp's mouth; stockton's "irritation" factor although gary was a stopper on d, stockton could be the most irritating pg ever; stockton stayed with the same team his whole career (i REALLY respect that) gary wanted to stay with the sonics his whole career but ran into an espresso-filled owner who wanted him traded. how many players would have taken a massive paycut ($35 mil offer from the trailblazers) with the lakers like gp did; played a backup/supporting role to a current all star in wade? he is easing out of his career very well

running their respective teams: a wash. both were invaluable to their teams over the course of their careers. stockton with the same team could have played a couple more years effectively; gary taking on different roles these past years with the bucks lakers celtics and heat.

espn's analysis of point guards lists gp as #10; stockton as #4

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailyd...estPointGuards


overall, my opinion is that stockton was the better point guard; gp was the overall better player who was a point guard
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Old 07-23-2006, 11:06 AM   #34
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stockton is a prime example of a great player who actually played basketball the right way throughout his entire career. it's true that he did not ccomplish the ultimate goal which is wining the championship, but i would disagree with anyone that says that gary payton is the more successful pg than john stockton, career-wise speaking, because "the glove" has the ring on his finger. i choose stockton because, personally, i am leaning on the fact that stockton takes pride of himself and retires title-less is much more admirable than payton being an insignificant factor in helping the miami heat win in regular season and/or become the champions.
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Old 07-23-2006, 11:10 AM   #35
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Its funny how we always talk about Stockton playing the right way when in reality he was always voted one of the dirtiest player in the league in GM and player polls the NBA does.
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Old 07-23-2006, 11:13 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by JordanPippenRodman
Stockton hands down. I lost respect for GP when he started riding other player's coatails to try and win that ring. stockton played a major role for the jazz until the day he retired. payton has been playing 3rd string roles for years now, he sucks compared to a true PG like John Stockton.

Really weak assessment there. You claim the "hands down" based on your dislike for GP AFTER he tried to win rings in L.A and Miami? Thats such a powerful argument. :rollingeyes:
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Old 07-23-2006, 11:18 AM   #37
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Stockton is the better PG. You can make the argument he is a better PG then Magic where Magic was the better player. You can and have NEVER done that with GP. I dont see where an argument develops for GP because if that was possible then so is Nash, Kidd. The fact people are breaking down stats that are meaningless in this argument supports just that.

I also like how GP is clearly better then John. Please go find me articles from bball analysts, peers that support this claim. Use as many search engines as you can find. I'll be waiting...
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Old 07-23-2006, 11:21 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by JtotheIzzo
Its funny how we always talk about Stockton playing the right way when in reality he was always voted one of the dirtiest player in the league in GM and player polls the NBA does.

You're not taking the right way in the right sense. Thats why. Being a dirty player consistented of what? Holding, clutching, grabbing a fist of jersey, shorts to restrict a player from moving, cutting, getting to a screen in time? Wow.
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Old 07-23-2006, 11:29 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Voice of Reason
You're not taking the right way in the right sense. Thats why. Being a dirty player consistented of what? Holding, clutching, grabbing a fist of jersey, shorts to restrict a player from moving, cutting, getting to a screen in time? Wow.

no I am talking more along the lines of elbowing bigs he used to screen for Mailman in the nuts. The whole key to thier pick and roll game was Stockton's potential injury causing contact, like going in low and hard, undercutting, looking for knee to knee contact, running through screens, rabbit punches and all kinds of ****.

The guy made a living of setting screens low and then rolling off and throwing the ball to a wide-open Malone because the defender is laying on the floor holding his knee.

NO ONE complained, why? because he is John Stockton
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Old 07-23-2006, 11:35 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by JtotheIzzo
no I am talking more along the lines of elbowing bigs he used to screen for Mailman in the nuts. The whole key to thier pick and roll game was Stockton's potential injury causing contact, like going in low and hard, undercutting, looking for knee to knee contact, running through screens, rabbit punches and all kinds of ****.

The guy made a living of setting screens low and then rolling off and throwing the ball to a wide-open Malone because the defender is laying on the floor holding his knee.

NO ONE complained, why? because he is John Stockton

:rollingeyes: Wow, I think you are just repeating what you heard and have hardly watched stockton play. How old are you? Still in HS?
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Old 07-23-2006, 11:41 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by ak47smohawk
:rollingeyes: Wow, I think you are just repeating what you heard and have hardly watched stockton play. How old are you? Still in HS?

wow you are a jacka$$ trying to be funny, I am probably older than you young buck, lets put it this way, I actually balled in the days where everyone donned the shorts your lil buddy John Stockton used to love to wear.

Repeating what I heard? So now I need to offer proof for everything I say, you a falkin homer buddy who cant deal with anyone saying anything bad about the great Johnny S.

You name shows your bias so don't jump in unless you have something productive to add to the commentary.

I could be wrong though perhaps you have ESP and are actually reading my brain...no on second thoughts you are just a punk a$$ed little ***** who saw a chance to try and be cool...pathetic
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Old 07-23-2006, 11:41 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by JtotheIzzo
no I am talking more along the lines of elbowing bigs he used to screen for Mailman in the nuts. The whole key to thier pick and roll game was Stockton's potential injury causing contact, like going in low and hard, undercutting, looking for knee to knee contact, running through screens, rabbit punches and all kinds of ****.

The guy made a living of setting screens low and then rolling off and throwing the ball to a wide-open Malone because the defender is laying on the floor holding his knee.

NO ONE complained, why? because he is John Stockton

How many players were complaining? They would fit in todays game of crying to the ref for physical play. The Bad Boys are celebrated and praised. The nickname alone has people . Why is that? Oh because they were by far not only the dirtiest team in the league but they were blatant with it. And the sole reason the most underrated pansy (who also calimed Stockton was dirty) in the NBA MJ was protected. By none other then the same tool who changed the new rules in the league today to eliminate and restrict physical play. Go figure.

Many people dont call Stockton out for his acts because they are hidden, alot of times out of the camera from ones view. So unless you're specifically watching Stockon every minute of every game you'll miss the little things he may do. When people hear Stockton was dirty the first response is "What? John? I never saw him do something dirty". And then when someone breaks it down they still are left to ponder "Huh?". Nothing blatant. For all we know the player on the ground holding thier knee is acting. Overreacting. If Manu was on the ground holding his knee we arent so sensitive moreso "He's trying to win another oscar". Sure John has a good image but most of the things said about his dirty tactics are things you seen firsthand? Any video footage or players saying stuff? Reason why its tough to find John dirty tactics because he did a good job protecting his ownself and knew when and where to do it. Or it could be a couple players responding to certain instances and the media/fans running with it as if he did this the majority of his career. I'm going with the latter because i dont recall much dirty tactics, just recall players being pansies crying about John. And doing so because he had a clean image but they remember ONE instance where he was "bad".
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Old 07-23-2006, 11:44 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Voice of Reason
How many players were complaining? They would fit in todays game of crying to the ref for physical play. The Bad Boys are celebrated and praised. The nickname alone has people . Why is that? Oh because they were by far not only the dirtiest team in the league but they were blatant with it. And the sole reason the most underrated pansy (who also calimed Stockton was dirty) in the NBA MJ was protected. By none other then the same tool who changed the new rules in the league today to eliminate and restrict physical play. Go figure.

Many people dont call Stockton out for his acts because they are hidden, alot of times out of the camera from ones view. So unless you're specifically watching Stockon every minute of every game you'll miss the little things he may do. When people hear Stockton was dirty the first response is "What? John? I never saw him do something dirty". And then when someone breaks it down they still are left to ponder "Huh?". Nothing blatant. For all we know the player on the ground holding thier knee is acting. Overreacting. If Manu was on the ground holding his knee we arent so sensitive moreso "He's trying to win another oscar". Sure John has a good image but most of the things said about his dirty tactics are things you seen firsthand? Any video footage or players saying stuff? Reason why its tough to find John dirty tactics because he did a good job protecting his ownself and knew when and where to do it.

So he's dirty but he gets away with it? Smooth Criminal?
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Old 07-23-2006, 11:49 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by JtotheIzzo
wow you are a jacka$$ trying to be funny, I am probably older than you young buck, lets put it this way, I actually balled in the days where everyone donned the shorts your lil buddy John Stockton used to love to wear.

Repeating what I heard? So now I need to offer proof for everything I say, you a falkin homer buddy who cant deal with anyone saying anything bad about the great Johnny S.

You name shows your bias so don't jump in unless you have something productive to add to the commentary.

I could be wrong though perhaps you have ESP and are actually reading my brain...no on second thoughts you are just a punk a$$ed little ***** who saw a chance to try and be cool...pathetic

My bias? I have no problem with people saying Magic etc is better than Stockton. I just think its funny when people resort to calling him a dirty player saying he did all sorts of underhanded stuff. How many clips you got laying around of him hitting someone in the nuts? None would be my guess. People talk like he did it every game and all the time or something. Your the one throwing out untrue accusations that you can't back up with anything more than hearsay. Sounds like you are a stockton hater. How about you argue their play not accusations that can't be proven?
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Old 07-23-2006, 12:01 PM   #45
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My bias? I have no problem with people saying Magic etc is better than Stockton. I just think its funny when people resort to calling him a dirty player saying he did all sorts of underhanded stuff. How many clips you got laying around of him hitting someone in the nuts? None would be my guess. People talk like he did it every game and all the time or something. Your the one throwing out untrue accusations that you can't back up with anything more than hearsay. Sounds like you are a stockton hater. How about you argue their play not accusations that can't be proven?

My point originally was to point out the fact that all the praise of JS playing 'the right way' may be over hyped. Here are a few examples of what I mean, but since I wasn't there live to study Stockton's every move I am afraid to post them as they wont stand up to your ever so stringient editorial standards...
Quote:
Dirty is a matter of interpretation, and in the NBA, dirty isn't necessarily a bad thing. It translates into getting away with whatever you can. Those who voted in our USATODAY.com survey were right to look no further than Utah to find two of the all-time best at getting away with not-so-clean play.
Between them, Karl Malone and John Stockton got 46.4% of your vote as the dirtiest player. Malone led the way with 31.9%, Portland's Rasheed Wallace was a close second with 29.4 % and Stockton finished third among our nominees with 14.5% of the vote.
Stockton is my pick. He knows the little tricks pulling a defender down as he falls after a shot, slyly jumping into defenders and getting the calls to go his way, slickly grabbing and holding when no referee can see it and just being a physical, tough, no-nonsense guy. I want him on my team, definitely.
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The only knock on him during his career was that he was notoriously known as a dirty player, a guy who would get away with things such as raising his elbows while setting a screen. Former player Dennis Rodman called him the dirtiest player in the NBA in his autobiography, while syndicated radio talk show host Jim Rome referred to him as "the pasty gangsta" for his on-court play.
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Vaughn's been studying behind the dirtiest player in the NBA, John Stockton, since he left Lawrence.
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