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Old 07-23-2006, 12:13 PM   #46
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Actually those are fine. I never said he didn't clutch grab etc. But you were saying he is intentionally hitting people in the nuts and trying to take out their knees. I don't see that anywhere.....
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Old 07-23-2006, 01:54 PM   #47
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Default We need to qualify PG again.....

PG is responsible for getting the TEAM high quality attempts.....People think that it must be by distribution...this is false....

Think about a QB...for example Michael Vick in college or even now in the NFL...if he goes back 7 step drop and the best option is for him to run...then he runs....or atleast he should.....

People like to believe that AI can't be a PG beuz he shoots alot but ask yourself....when is AI shooting when someone else has a better shot than him?

If that doesn't happen then he's fufilled his role as a PG.......Even when SNOW was there and AI was offically a SG he played combo guard.....they got him the ball on the wings which gives him a longer path to the rim thereby allowing his speed to be more dangerous.....but he also ran the point...seince Snow left he's been the point most of the time....

Being a PG isn't only about distribution becuz not everyteam has the personel to make distribution the best decision.
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Old 07-23-2006, 02:01 PM   #48
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When we discuss this, we aren't talking about who has more PG skills and who can do what a PG is supposed to do better...

Thats not what it means when someone asks Who is the better PG?

Otherwise, Magic or Stockton would always be 1st on EVERYONE's list...But as you see, all anyalysts have Magic 1st...And Stockton is like 3-8...

Stockton and Magic would be 1st on the question..."Who is the better PURE PG", then you would talk about PG and PG only...

But what who is the better player/PG means is../
which one of the 2 players that play PG is better...

Passing is still counted high, but not as high like on the "Pure PG" discussion...


Payton is the better PG
Stockton is the better "Pure PG"

Payton is the better PG because he is the better player that plays PG like Stockton...

Stockton is the better "Pure PG" because he has more PG Skills...


But this discussion is Payton vs. Stockton period...

Not Who is the better "Pure PG", its who is the better Player...
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Old 07-23-2006, 02:07 PM   #49
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Now...

I'll give Stockton that he is the better Pure PG...


But the better PG/Player...Has to be Payton ...

Stockton has a large advantage in passing...

Payton has a large advantage in defense...

That almost cuts down the difference...

But then, Payton has another advantage in scoring...He could score any time...

Breaking down scoring, Stockton has the advantage in shooting, and Payton can drive and post much better than Stockton...


With the addition in scoring, that is enough for Payton to pull the whole edge over Stockton's only advantage, which is passing....


But Payton has even more advantages than that...

He is a MUCH better rebounder...He averages about 50% more rebounds...Stockton's best is 3.3rpg...Payton's best is 6.5rpg...

That says a lot...Stockton is a well below average rebounder, whie Payton is above average...


Steals Stockton has advantage, but Stockton wasn't good at containing...


Another VERY IMPORTANT advantage Payton has is Head to Head...This is a head to head comparision, and Payton has the Head to Head advantage...
By a good amount, he can shut down Stockton, and score on him all day
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Old 07-23-2006, 02:15 PM   #50
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But here are some major points against Stockton...


Stockton can't take over a game like a superstar can...All the other greats can, but really, Stockton can't...


Another, and maybe the biggest thing against Stockton is...


Malone was Clearly the no.1 guy...

Stockton got MOST of assists to Malone...I mean, if the PG was good and the leader, he would give assists to the whole team and show his PG skills...But it was Malone, he was always the one scoring...Yeah, Stockton had great playmaking skills to get Malone the ball and score, but it was usually Malone...Malone scored all the points, Stockton just got the assists mostly to him, only 1 guy...


Take this as a Fact...

Karl Malone is a 2 Time MVP

Stockton hasn't even finished Top 6 in MVP VOTING



Now if you really were that good, and a superstar, and a Top 5 PG...You should've at least finished Top 6 in valublness once in your career...

Payton was once 3rd in MVP Voting...

Stockton was never even 6th...He wasn't what you call, the "leader", the "superstar", etc.


He had great PG skills, but player wise, he was never a take over guy...Like other stars...
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Old 07-23-2006, 02:21 PM   #51
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Lets take a look back at 1996...


The Prime Stockton/Malone combination vs. The Prime Payton/Kemp Combo



In that 1996 Jazz team, Stockton was the no.2 guy...

Malone finished much higher in MVP voting than Stockton, and was really the "leader"

Payton and Kemp were very close, but Payton was the no.1 guy...

Here is what they did in 1996

Kemp:

All-NBA 2nd

Payton:

All-NBA 2nd
All-Defensive 1st
DPOY


Payton also finished higher in MVP voting, showing that he was more valuable to his team than Kemp...



So a Good Jazz team with Stockton as the no.2 guy vs. a Good Sonic Team with Payton as the no.1 guy...


Both Stockton and Payton had the same talent level around them...


But who wins the series...Payton or Stockton...

Payton does...

Payton WINS as the no.1 guy as Stockon loses even though he was the no.2 guy...
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Old 07-23-2006, 02:22 PM   #52
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Old 07-23-2006, 02:25 PM   #53
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So quick summary:


Stockton was the better "Pure PG" (Player with better PG skills...)
Payton was the better PG (Better player that plays PG)


Stockton was a no.2 guy most of his career...While Payton was a no.1 guy...

That is a big reason, why Payton is better...

And to go on, Stockton's only real edge is in passing/playmaking

But Payton has scoring, defense, rebounding, over him...

Stockton had Malone for most of assists, he was dependent on Malone for his assists because thats who he gave them to...And Malone was obviously the no.1 guy on that team, not Stockton...


Payton beat Stockton head to head as both teams had similar talent, and if anyone had better talent, it'd be Stockton's Jazz...




Payton was better than Stockton
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Old 07-23-2006, 02:39 PM   #54
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Quote:
Payton was better than Stockton

It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it isn't true. Until Payton passes Stockton in assists and/or steals... Stockton is better.
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Old 07-23-2006, 02:39 PM   #55
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Find me other bball analysts and peers that place GP above Stockton. You keep typing these long ass replies under the username "Glove 20". Kind of shoots down your argument. Lets see what is respected, what is said about both players. Gurantee Stockton is recognized, praised and ranked HIGHER then GP. There is a reason why. Someone can make a username "Kidd Rules" and end it with Kidd is a better PG then Stockton in bold font.


When you look at lists that rank PG's in the NBA history, GP is not ahead of Stockton. Why is that?
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Old 07-23-2006, 02:58 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it isn't true. Until Payton passes Stockton in assists and/or steals... Stockton is better.

The dumbest thing you possibly could have said. When did playing more years all of a sudden make a player better than another player?
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Old 07-23-2006, 03:08 PM   #57
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John Stockton is better than Gary Payton because of **career achievements**.

If John Stockton did not hold those records we would not even be asking the question of whether Payton is better than Stockton. He clearly would be better than Stockton.

But Stockton does have those accomplishments. And unless Payton beats Stockton in those two achievements, Payton will never be regarded as better than Stockton.

Whether you see that as dumb, I can't help you. But most media view it as I just said. The reason why Stockton is better is because of assists and steals. End of story.
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Old 07-23-2006, 03:10 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice of Reason
Find me other bball analysts and peers that place GP above Stockton. You keep typing these long ass replies under the username "Glove 20". Kind of shoots down your argument. Lets see what is respected, what is said about both players. Gurantee Stockton is recognized, praised and ranked HIGHER then GP. There is a reason why. Someone can make a username "Kidd Rules" and end it with Kidd is a better PG then Stockton in bold font.


When you look at lists that rank PG's in the NBA history, GP is not ahead of Stockton. Why is that?
Actually

when a player is ranked too high, he is called "overrated"...That leads to many players that are worse, over someone who is better than them...

John Hollinger is an anylast that ranked Payton as the 4th Best PG of All-Time...Even I don't rank Payton that high, but you see, people do place Payton as one of the best...


Now if you have something to say...

Say it to my post...

I backed it up with objective means...I didn't just say Payton is better than Stocton period...

Everything was objective...

Last edited by Glove_20 : 07-23-2006 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 07-23-2006, 03:12 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
John Stockton is better than Gary Payton because of **career achievements**.

If John Stockton did not hold those records we would not even be asking the question of whether Payton is better than Stockton. He clearly would be better than Stockton.

But Stockton does have those accomplishments. And unless Payton beats Stockton in those two achievements, Payton will never be regarded as better than Stockton.

Whether you see that as dumb, I can't help you. But most media view it as I just said. The reason why Stockton is better is because of assists and steals. End of story.
Well...

At least you admit, without the records, Payton would be better..."Clearly"

That was the point I was trying to get across...



Now...

There is a difference between who had a better career and who is a better player...

Maybe because of those career records that Stockton had a better career...

But I was just saying, like you said, Payton "clearly" is the better player...
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Old 07-23-2006, 03:24 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice of Reason
Find me other bball analysts and peers that place GP above Stockton. You keep typing these long ass replies under the username "Glove 20". Kind of shoots down your argument. Lets see what is respected, what is said about both players. Gurantee Stockton is recognized, praised and ranked HIGHER then GP. There is a reason why. Someone can make a username "Kidd Rules" and end it with Kidd is a better PG then Stockton in bold font.


When you look at lists that rank PG's in the NBA history, GP is not ahead of Stockton. Why is that?
Here is an anylast that thinks Payton was better in Prime...

"I watched Kidd, Stockton and GP in their absolute primes and thought GP was the best player of the three"
-Bill Simmons

http://jazzfanz.com/boards/viewtopic...=JOHN+STOCKTON

And many other think it is close, like right one after each other, which makes it debatable...

And Stockton might be overrated, and Payton IS underrated, which might be why many more put Stockton over Payton

Last edited by Glove_20 : 11-08-2006 at 10:19 PM.
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