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Old 07-23-2006, 04:25 PM   #61
Locked_Up_Tonight
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Sport's Illustrated listed John Stockton number 5. Gary Payton didn't even make the list.

Charley Rosen ranked John Stockton 4 and Gary Payton didn't even make the list.

I'm sure I can find many more if I spent a little time googling it. But those are two biggie national media who do it.
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Old 07-23-2006, 04:33 PM   #62
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Quote:
Now...

There is a difference between who had a better career and who is a better player...

Maybe because of those career records that Stockton had a better career...

But I was just saying, like you said, Payton "clearly" is the better player...

I saidf he would be clearly better if Payton held the records. Or he at least surpassed Stockton. He does not hold those records or has surpassed Stockton so therefore he is not "clearly" better.

John Stockton was the better player because he had the better career.
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Old 07-23-2006, 04:35 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
Sport's Illustrated listed John Stockton number 5. Gary Payton didn't even make the list.

Charley Rosen ranked John Stockton 4 and Gary Payton didn't even make the list.

I'm sure I can find many more if I spent a little time googling it. But those are two biggie national media who do it.
I already said that Payton was "underrated"...

That happens with players that are underrated...

And to show that he isn't always ranked low,

John Hollinger ranked Payton at 4th...

Bill Simmons said this:

"I watched Kidd, Stockton and GP in their absolute primes and thought GP was the best player of the three"


And you know very well, most players are recognized and looked at after they retire...Like I said, when Stockton played, he never even finished higher than 7th in MVP voting...



Bu anyways, if you have something to say, say it about my posts...
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Old 07-23-2006, 04:35 PM   #64
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So Bill Simmons was one person. Any others or you gave up on google.com because of only 2pgs of results?
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Old 07-23-2006, 04:37 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
I saidf he would be clearly better if Payton held the records. Or he at least surpassed Stockton. He does not hold those records or has surpassed Stockton so therefore he is not "clearly" better.

John Stockton was the better player because he had the better career.
PS

All those lists you were talking about, with the career thing and everything, were probably before Payton won a ring...

Who knows how these Anylysts might change...

They gave Tiny a credit for a ring and bumped him up big even though he shot like 36% and blew many big shots...


A ring added to a career alone, when looked on later after the the player retires, EASILY can change things...It worked for Tiny, and usually, historians, just check to see if you have a ring or not, if you won a championship or not, if you have received the ultimate prize or not...
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Old 07-23-2006, 04:38 PM   #66
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ESPN ranked John Stockton 4th. They ranked Gary Payton 10th.

So we now have

ESPN
Sports Illustrated
Charley Rosen/Fox Sports

all have Stockton better than Payton.
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Old 07-23-2006, 04:41 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice of Reason
So Bill Simmons was one person. Any others or you gave up on google.com because of only 2pgs of results?
Read my next post...(the one below yours)

All these lists are before Payton has even retired, and people right now are just looking at Payton just being this bench guy...Just like Stockton, he wasn't recongnized much when he was playing, never even finished Top 6 in MVP voting, but now, he is recognized...

All these lists are also before Payton won a ring...

Like I said:

"A ring added to a career alone, when looked on later after the the player retires, EASILY can change things...It worked for Tiny, and usually, historians, just check to see if you have a ring or not, if you won a championship or not, if you have received the ultimate prize or not..."

And read my next post and the ones before that...(the one above yours too)


PS:
Many anylysts rank Payton and Stockton close together, making it "debatable", and if a player is underrated (Payton), that might be enough to pass him over...

Payton's career isn't over



He said he is coming back next year...

Last edited by Glove_20 : 07-23-2006 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 07-23-2006, 04:42 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
ESPN ranked John Stockton 4th. They ranked Gary Payton 10th.

So we now have

ESPN
Sports Illustrated
Charley Rosen/Fox Sports

all have Stockton better than Payton.
Rosen is hater...

Look at the guys on his list...


And did you even read my post above? And you can read the one below too
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Old 07-23-2006, 04:44 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
Rosen is hater...

Look at the guys on his list...


And did you even read my post above? And you can read the one below too
And really its sad...


You had nothing to say about my posts, the points were too strong...

So now you have to rely on what "other" people said, and use that to try to beat me...


But in reality, Payton hasn't retired, and hasn't received his recognition yet...Just like Stockton when he was playing, never finished Top 6 in the league in MVP Voting...

People remember Payton right now as a guy who just jumps on teams...

And for the last time, all those lists are before Payton had a ring...

""A ring added to a career alone, when looked on later after the the player retires, EASILY can change things...It worked for Tiny, and usually, historians, just check to see if you have a ring or not, if you won a championship or not, if you have received the ultimate prize or not..."
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Old 07-23-2006, 04:45 PM   #70
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Quote:
Rosen is hater...

Clearly since he didn't even list Payton in his top 8. I guess Sports Illustrated is too considering they didn't even have Payton in their top 10.

Last edited by Locked_Up_Tonight : 07-23-2006 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 07-23-2006, 04:57 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
Clearly since he didn't even list Payton in his top 8. I guess Sports Illustrated is too considering they didn't even have Payton in their top 10.
Rosen

said that Payton did a bad job against the Bulls


When Payton held Jordan to 39% the games he guarded him...


And Jordan overall had the worst Finals of his career, shooting only 41%...The whole series, and I am talking about the 30ppg GOAT Jordan...
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Old 07-23-2006, 04:59 PM   #72
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But anyways...

I think I have explained enough, why Payton was below Stockton on these lists...



So back to the "debate" part of this, and not the "look at other people"...

Did guys come up with something to say about those posts in Page 4?
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Old 07-23-2006, 10:54 PM   #73
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So does anyone have anything to say about my 4 posts on top of page 4?


Is it that you just can't back Stockton anymore...


Here is the quick summary of them:

Stockton was the better "Pure PG" (Player with better PG skills...)
Payton was the better PG (Better player that plays PG)


Stockton was a no.2 guy most of his career...While Payton was a no.1 guy...

That is a big reason, why Payton is better...

And to go on, Stockton's only real edge is in passing/playmaking

But Payton has scoring, defense, rebounding, over him...

Stockton had Malone for most of assists, he was dependent on Malone for his assists because thats who he gave them to...And Malone was obviously the no.1 guy on that team, not Stockton...


Payton beat Stockton head to head as both teams had similar talent, and if anyone had better talent, it'd be Stockton's Jazz...



For more, on backing all these statements up, go to Page 4...
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Old 07-23-2006, 10:54 PM   #74
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Stockton because Payton sucked for the Lakers.
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Old 07-23-2006, 11:06 PM   #75
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Stockton
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