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Old 07-24-2006, 06:55 AM   #91
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Better PG = Stockton
Better player = GP

There, real simple.
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Old 07-24-2006, 06:57 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by EricForman
that don't mean GP wasn't good, it's just he's underrated. GP in his prime, is at the very least on Stockton's level, ok? I'm not saying he's BETTER, but he can definitely HANG, and GP's D makes Magic's D look like sh*t.
If you read my post you can see i don't say Payton's a bad player, in fact, he's one of my favorite players.
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Old 07-24-2006, 07:04 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by GOBB
Better PG = Stockton
Better player = GP

There, real simple.

if they are both PGs throughout their careers and stockton is the better PG, how could payton be the better player
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Old 07-24-2006, 07:09 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Lei
if they are both PGs throughout their careers and stockton is the better PG, how could payton be the better player

GP had a better all around game so you cant discredit him being a better defender, rebounder. Those dont get ignored. He did things better then Stockton. But when you talk specifically about the role of a PG, the duties? John did it better then GP.

Simple. Get with it
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Old 07-24-2006, 12:57 PM   #95
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Actually its like this...

Payton is the better PG because he is the better player that plays PG like Stockton...

Stockton is the better "Pure PG" because he has more PG Skills and does the rule of PG better...
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Old 07-24-2006, 01:00 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by EricForman
Charley Rosen is a clown. He wrote an article a few months ago about overrated players. He put Gary Payton on the overrated list. Now it's not the fact he thinks GP is overrated that's a joke, but WHY he thinks GP is overrated.

I'm too lazy to look up the article, so I don't have an exact quote, but he basically says GP's supposed great D was a myth, because Jordan torched GP in the Finals.....

Charley Rosen thinks GP's defense ain't that great because he couldn't shut down MICHAEL JORDAN.

Does that make any sense to you, really?

And for the record, GP throughly outplayed Stockton in the 7 game series in 96. But Stockton is the better PG, GP is just the better overall player.
To add to that...

Jordan shot 41%...That was his worst Finals EVER...

And the games where Payton was his primary defender, Jordan shot 39%...


Rosen is a joke
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Old 07-24-2006, 01:02 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by chains5000
No one who has watched them play can say Payton was better. Anytime anyone makes an all time all position list, Stockton's name comes up along with Magic's and Robertson's. Nobody talks about Payton...
Stockton wasn't recoginized too much before he retired either...
He never even finished Top 6 in MVP voting...

Why? He was the no.2 guy all his career, while Payton was the no.1 guy most of his career...

Most players are recognized more after they retire...And all those lists, are without Payton having a ring...Sometimes Historians just look to see if the player has a ring or not, and it gives the player a boost...Like it did to Tiny...
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Old 07-24-2006, 01:10 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Glove_20
Actually its like this...

Payton is the better PG because he is the better player that plays PG like Stockton...

Stockton is the better "Pure PG" because he has more PG Skills and does the rule of PG better...

No its really not like that. But whatever we are saying the same thing only someone is throwing cute words around (not me). WE cant overlook GP being a better scorer, defender, rebounder hence all around game which was better then Stocktons. But at the same time Stockton ran a team better and do exactly what the position was designed for and did it better then ANYONE in the history of the league, including Magic. But I'm sure someone might argue that and i dont care.

When you rank the PG's in nba history Stockton is ranked over GP. It is what it is and if you rank GP over Stockton then that is you. But the majority of folks do it with John above Gary. Beign as tho you're a GP fan I'm not surprised nor shocked at you arguing to strongly for GP.
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Old 07-24-2006, 01:16 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by GOBB
No its really not like that. But whatever we are saying the same thing only someone is throwing cute words around (not me). WE cant overlook GP being a better scorer, defender, rebounder hence all around game which was better then Stocktons. But at the same time Stockton ran a team better and do exactly what the position was designed for and did it better then ANYONE in the history of the league, including Magic. But I'm sure someone might argue that and i dont care.

When you rank the PG's in nba history Stockton is ranked over GP. It is what it is and if you rank GP over Stockton then that is you. But the majority of folks do it with John above Gary. Beign as tho you're a GP fan I'm not surprised nor shocked at you arguing to strongly for GP.
Well Payton hasn't gotten his full recognition yet because he hasn't retired and right now people just are remembering today's Payton...

Even Stockton didn't get much recognition when he was playing...

And all those lists before are also without Payton's rings...Sometimes Historians just look to see if the player has a ring or not, and it gives the player a boost...Like it did to Tiny...

Who knows what might happen on the next Great PG list...
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Old 07-24-2006, 01:19 PM   #100
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GOBB

If it was how you said it then...

Otherwise, Magic or Stockton would always be 1st on EVERYONE's list...But as you see, all anyalysts have Magic 1st...And Stockton is like 3-8...

Stockton and Magic would be 1st on the question..."Who is the better PURE PG", then you would talk about PG and PG only...

But what who is the better player/PG means is../
which one of the 2 players that play PG is better...

Passing is still counted high, but not as high like on the "Pure PG" discussion...


Payton is the better PG
Stockton is the better "Pure PG"

Payton is the better PG because he is the better player that plays PG like Stockton...

Stockton is the better "Pure PG" because he has more PG Skills...


That is what Pure PG is...Stockton has more PG skills, so he is the better "Pure PG"

Payton is the better player and both play PG...So Payton is the better PG...
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Old 07-24-2006, 01:24 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Glove_20
Well Payton hasn't gotten his full recognition yet because he hasn't retired and right now people just are remembering today's Payton...

Even Stockton didn't get much recognition when he was playing...

And all those lists before are also without Payton's rings...Sometimes Historians just look to see if the player has a ring or not, and it gives the player a boost...Like it did to Tiny...

Who knows what might happen on the next Great PG list...

Yeah who knows but speaking for myself? I have John over GP and to me its not a slight/diss or anything negative doing it. I grew up watching GP in college all the way up until this point. Loved the way he played the game and often used his nickname when i played basketball since I enjoyed playing defense more then offense. Nothing better then talkin trash, getting under someones skin and locking them up or containing them. I know what GP was capable of. If someone feels he is better then Stockton? So be it. The seperation isnt that big at all. A case can be made for both, that I can acknowledge. So its all good and maybe in a couple years peoples minds change. GP has been regarded as the #1 PG without a doubt as well as arguably for the most part in his career. Great player and I enjoyed watching him play the game.
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Old 07-24-2006, 02:54 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Sline96
stockton is a prime example of a great player who actually played basketball the right way throughout his entire career. it's true that he did not ccomplish the ultimate goal which is wining the championship, but i would disagree with anyone that says that gary payton is the more successful pg than john stockton, career-wise speaking, because "the glove" has the ring on his finger. i choose stockton because, personally, i am leaning on the fact that stockton takes pride of himself and retires title-less is much more admirable than payton being an insignificant factor in helping the miami heat win in regular season and/or become the champions.

payton did play an important role coming off the bench. he hit some big shots in the finals too.

just because he didnt score 20 points and throw six assists doesnt mean he didnt play an important role for the team

plus there was the intangible factor of his experience helping wade development this year
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Old 07-24-2006, 03:01 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by GOBB
No its really not like that. But whatever we are saying the same thing only someone is throwing cute words around (not me). WE cant overlook GP being a better scorer, defender, rebounder hence all around game which was better then Stocktons. But at the same time Stockton ran a team better and do exactly what the position was designed for and did it better then ANYONE in the history of the league, including Magic. But I'm sure someone might argue that and i dont care.

When you rank the PG's in nba history Stockton is ranked over GP. It is what it is and if you rank GP over Stockton then that is you. But the majority of folks do it with John above Gary. Beign as tho you're a GP fan I'm not surprised nor shocked at you arguing to strongly for GP.

here you go, between two players who play at the same position, the one who is better at this position is the better player. i dont see why it is so hard to understand.

you did come up with something revolutionary though: between 2 point guards, one is the better point guard but the other one can be the "better player". I think the media should take this new theory very seriously and incorporate it into their next top 10 list so you can have a list of "top 10 power forwards" followed by another list of " top 10 power forward players".
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Old 07-24-2006, 03:08 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Lei
here you go, between two players who play at the same position, the one who is better at this position is the better player. i dont see why it is so hard to understand.

you did come up with something revolutionary though: between 2 point guards, one is the better point guard but the other one can be the "better player". I think the media should take this new theory very seriously and incorporate it into their next top 10 list so you can have a list of "top 10 power forwards" followed by another list of " top 10 power forward players".
Yeah like I told him...

Say it like...


Payton is the better PG because he is the better player that plays PG like Stockton...

Stockton is the better "Pure PG" because he has more PG Skills...


That is what he meant, me and him are saying the same things just in different words, my words probably make more sense...

Because what he was referring to was a "True PG" or Pure PG...Just purely on PG skills...

While Payton is the better player who plays PG
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Old 07-24-2006, 04:19 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Glove_20
Well Payton hasn't gotten his full recognition yet because he hasn't retired and right now people just are remembering today's Payton...



Actually, because GP hasn't retired yet the last few years have really hurt his overall career, at least to CASUAL fans. True basketball fans know GP in the 90s was the freaking man. But there are tons, TONS of "fans" today that just remembers the Lakers and Heat GP and think of him as a loud mouth role player who can't hit jumpers, that's it.
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