Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > NBA Team Forums > Utah Jazz Forum

Utah Jazz Forum Utah Jazz forum - Utah Jazz message board

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-25-2006, 10:53 AM   #106
RainierBeachPoet
NEVER forget da SONICS
 
RainierBeachPoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: seattle
Posts: 6,877
Default perspective

glove 20 is actually aaron goodwin and he's trying to gary a better contract...

good discussion gents. points out to me that there are different ways to argue the point (pardon the pun)

reading these posts also makes me realize that there is a gap in perspectives too

magic, oscar, isaiah, cousy, walt frazier, tiny cannot be forgotten. i cant remember oscar well and i never saw cousy, but the others just put me in awe with their skills. most would put magic hands down as the all time best pg; oscar the best all around pg; frazier as the lockdown defensive pg (even better than gp)

i know i started this post as a discussion about gp and stock, but i wanted to give props to these other points
RainierBeachPoet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2006, 12:51 PM   #107
hardfoul
I brick open layups
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: yoooootah
Posts: 89
Default

I've been a Jazz fan since the mid-80s. That gives me the opportunity to watch Stockton and Payton (a conferance rival so we'd see them at least 4 times per year) for pretty much their whole careers. I'd say I average about 40 Jazz games watched per year through that time frame.

My opinion= Stockton was a great player in a offense designed specifically for he and Karl Malone to dominate. Basicly all that was required of Stockton was to safely deliver the ball to Malone in the post and let him either score or shoot the free throws. As other teams started to key on Malone, that's where Stockton would get his meager points off a pass from Malone. Stockton would take ANY role (defensive screen, pass-first mentality, etc.) that Jerry Sloan asked him to. For that reason alone, I would prefer Stockton on my team.

Payton was an AWESOME player and the Sonics-Jazz games were always hotly contested. The Payton-Kemp-Perkins-Shrempf-Mcmillian teams were WAY more talented than the Malone-Stockton-Hornacek-role players the Jazz had. Payton's no slouch to have on your team either. It seemed like the games were decided more by a Sam Perkins three pointer (loved to hate that guy) Shrempf shot clock beating shot or a Bryon Russell layup or Adam Keefe putback more than a Payton or Stockton play.

Both guards were great at distributing the ball where it needed to be when it needed to be there. Defensively, I'd have to give a slight nod to Payton for his ability to shut down a player on his own. However, Stockton was an EXCELLENT team defense player and got most of his steals from that, IMHO.

Stockton's biggest fault is that he passed up to many 10-12 ft shots in the lane looking for an assist.

I'd have to give the nod to Stockton, but mostly because of the 'intangibles' he brings. There aren't and shouldn't be statistics for what he brought to a team. Personally, I think the Sonics had the better talent in that era and the ability of Stockton made them competitive with slightly less talented athletes. Again, Payton is absolutely no slouch and I'd have been a HUGE fan if he was in a Jazz uniform.

Unfortunately for both players, they both ran into Jordan-Pippen in their respective finals appearances and we all know how that ends.......
hardfoul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2006, 02:13 PM   #108
Glove_20
The Expert
 
Glove_20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,200
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricForman
Actually, because GP hasn't retired yet the last few years have really hurt his overall career, at least to CASUAL fans. True basketball fans know GP in the 90s was the freaking man. But there are tons, TONS of "fans" today that just remembers the Lakers and Heat GP and think of him as a loud mouth role player who can't hit jumpers, that's it.
Yeah...Thats kind of what I meant...


And I also said that, after Payton retires...He will be recognized more for the things he actually did...
Glove_20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2006, 02:36 PM   #109
Glove_20
The Expert
 
Glove_20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,200
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardfoul
I've been a Jazz fan since the mid-80s. That gives me the opportunity to watch Stockton and Payton (a conferance rival so we'd see them at least 4 times per year) for pretty much their whole careers. I'd say I average about 40 Jazz games watched per year through that time frame.

My opinion= Stockton was a great player in a offense designed specifically for he and Karl Malone to dominate. Basicly all that was required of Stockton was to safely deliver the ball to Malone in the post and let him either score or shoot the free throws. As other teams started to key on Malone, that's where Stockton would get his meager points off a pass from Malone. Stockton would take ANY role (defensive screen, pass-first mentality, etc.) that Jerry Sloan asked him to. For that reason alone, I would prefer Stockton on my team.

Payton was an AWESOME player and the Sonics-Jazz games were always hotly contested. The Payton-Kemp-Perkins-Shrempf-Mcmillian teams were WAY more talented than the Malone-Stockton-Hornacek-role players the Jazz had. Payton's no slouch to have on your team either. It seemed like the games were decided more by a Sam Perkins three pointer (loved to hate that guy) Shrempf shot clock beating shot or a Bryon Russell layup or Adam Keefe putback more than a Payton or Stockton play.

Both guards were great at distributing the ball where it needed to be when it needed to be there. Defensively, I'd have to give a slight nod to Payton for his ability to shut down a player on his own. However, Stockton was an EXCELLENT team defense player and got most of his steals from that, IMHO.

Stockton's biggest fault is that he passed up to many 10-12 ft shots in the lane looking for an assist.

I'd have to give the nod to Stockton, but mostly because of the 'intangibles' he brings. There aren't and shouldn't be statistics for what he brought to a team. Personally, I think the Sonics had the better talent in that era and the ability of Stockton made them competitive with slightly less talented athletes. Again, Payton is absolutely no slouch and I'd have been a HUGE fan if he was in a Jazz uniform.

Unfortunately for both players, they both ran into Jordan-Pippen in their respective finals appearances and we all know how that ends.......
1st of all...

Talent it might be arguable...

I mean WITH Payton and Stockton you can say Seattle had more talent, but without Payton and Stockton, it is arguable...


Stockton had the 2nd Greatest PF of All-Time...He was much much better than Kemp...Malone had 2 MVPs...While Kemp never even got All-NBA 1st...

Hornacek and Detlef were both All-Stars before...

The rest, Sonics had an advantage, but Malone's lead covers that...
Glove_20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2006, 02:42 PM   #110
Glove_20
The Expert
 
Glove_20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,200
Default

And like I said...

But here are some major points against Stockton...


Stockton can't take over a game like a superstar can...All the other greats can, but really, Stockton can't...


Another, and maybe the biggest thing against Stockton is...


Malone was Clearly the no.1 guy...

Stockton got MOST of assists to Malone...I mean, if the PG was good and the leader, he would give assists to the whole team and show his PG skills...But it was Malone, he was always the one scoring...Yeah, Stockton had great playmaking skills to get Malone the ball and score, but it was usually Malone...Malone scored all the points, Stockton just got the assists mostly to him, only 1 guy...


Take this as a Fact...

Karl Malone is a 2 Time MVP

Stockton hasn't even finished Top 6 in MVP VOTING



Now if you really were that good, and a superstar, and a Top 5 PG...You should've at least finished Top 6 in valublness once in your career...

Payton was once 3rd in MVP Voting...

Stockton was never even 6th...He wasn't what you call, the "leader", the "superstar", etc.


He had great PG skills, but player wise, he was never a take over guy...Like other stars...
Glove_20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2006, 02:47 PM   #111
Glove_20
The Expert
 
Glove_20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,200
Default

So basically, we are comparing a guy who has been the no.1 guy for most of his career vs. a guy who has been a no.2 guy most his career...

Not only that, did you see how Payton dominated Stockton head to head in their primes in the playoffs
Glove_20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2006, 03:01 PM   #112
GOBB
Sixers|Eagles|Phillies
 
GOBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Illadelph live 215
Posts: 51,467
Default

#2 for most of his career? I dont follow.
GOBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2006, 03:04 PM   #113
hardfoul
I brick open layups
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: yoooootah
Posts: 89
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
And like I said...

But here are some major points against Stockton...


Stockton can't take over a game like a superstar can...All the other greats can, but really, Stockton can't...


Another, and maybe the biggest thing against Stockton is...


Malone was Clearly the no.1 guy...

He just accepted his role as #2 and didn't care about his 'place' in the NBA.

That's bad? I wish more players were like that. The lack of egocentricity is awesome when you have that kind of skill set. I LOVE THAT!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Glove_20
Stockton got MOST of assists to Malone...I mean, if the PG was good and the leader, he would give assists to the whole team and show his PG skills...But it was Malone, he was always the one scoring...Yeah, Stockton had great playmaking skills to get Malone the ball and score, but it was usually Malone...Malone scored all the points, Stockton just got the assists mostly to him, only 1 guy...


Take this as a Fact...

Karl Malone is a 2 Time MVP

Stockton hasn't even finished Top 6 in MVP VOTING



Now if you really were that good, and a superstar, and a Top 5 PG...You should've at least finished Top 6 in valublness once in your career...

Payton was once 3rd in MVP Voting...

Stockton was never even 6th...He wasn't what you call, the "leader", the "superstar", etc.


He had great PG skills, but player wise, he was never a take over guy...Like other stars...

He was at least as much of a 'leader' as Malone. Just in a different way. He DICTATED what the Jazz did on offense and HOW they should play defense just by the example he set. There's no doubt he made Bryon Russell (and other players--not taking anything away from Bryon Russell--he did have to work to get what he got) a MUCH better player than he was. He didn't take over a game like Kobe tries to or MJ did. He's just not that kind of player and I don't think Gary Payton was/is either.

He did hit MANY key shots in games to win. Here's two off the top of my head. The three pointer against the Rockets to get to the NBA finals? He hit a layup with 1 or 2 seconds left to beat the Bulls (probably '90ish regular season game in Salt Lake) after the Jazz were 8 down under 40 seconds. {probably my favorite regular season game of all time}.

How are you going to finish in the MVP voting if you're distributing the ball and doing other intangibles that aren't statistical categories? The media doesn't report that kind of stuff. It's not flashy enough. Payton did that kind of stuff also and was more of an option in the offense so his numbers were better. Kemp at times could take over games unless there was another dominant big man in there. He kind of changed personalities at that point.

It's kind of an apples (Payton) to oranges (Stockton) comparison that can't be resolved. I'd like to hear what Malone thought about him not being as good as GP. I think he likes and gets along with Gary pretty well and would give an honest answer. I don't think he could choose as they are different types of players.
hardfoul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2006, 03:08 PM   #114
GOBB
Sixers|Eagles|Phillies
 
GOBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Illadelph live 215
Posts: 51,467
Default

GP plays with Karl Malone and GP too is the #2 guy whether he wants to be or not. Karl Malone is a HOF PF who has some arguing the best PF ever. GP has never played with anyone close to a Karl Malone.
GOBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2006, 03:12 PM   #115
Kobe24
Banned
 
Kobe24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Land of 14 NBA Championships
Posts: 6,188
Default

You mean Stockton plays with malone?
Kobe24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2006, 03:17 PM   #116
GOBB
Sixers|Eagles|Phillies
 
GOBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Illadelph live 215
Posts: 51,467
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe24
You mean Stockton plays with malone?

No GP, not Stockton.
GOBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2006, 03:20 PM   #117
Kobe24
Banned
 
Kobe24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Land of 14 NBA Championships
Posts: 6,188
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOBB
GP plays with Karl Malone and GP too is the #2 guy whether he wants to be or not. Karl Malone is a HOF PF who has some arguing the best PF ever. GP has never played with anyone close to a Karl Malone.

You said GP plays with Malone in the first sentence but the last sentence you said GP has never played with anyone close to malone.
Kobe24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2006, 03:23 PM   #118
GOBB
Sixers|Eagles|Phillies
 
GOBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Illadelph live 215
Posts: 51,467
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe24
You said GP plays with Malone in the first sentence but the last sentence you said GP has never played with anyone close to malone.

Are you following the damn argument or not?

Quote:
So basically, we are comparing a guy who has been the no.1 guy for most of his career (GP) vs. a guy who has been a no.2 guy most his career (Stockton)...

This is what I'm replying to. You shouldnt have any problems understanding my comment.
GOBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2006, 03:24 PM   #119
Glove_20
The Expert
 
Glove_20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,200
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOBB
GP plays with Karl Malone and GP too is the #2 guy whether he wants to be or not. Karl Malone is a HOF PF who has some arguing the best PF ever. GP has never played with anyone close to a Karl Malone.
So thats why I am saying...

Stockton never even finished Top 6 in NBA MVP Voting...That is what everybody that of his value to the team...

And it really was Malone doing the scoring...Stockton was only giving it to him...It wasn't like Nash, give everybody the ball through Nash...It was always going to Malone and he was scoring, all Stockton had to do is to give it to Malone and he'd finish...

And remember

Payton beat Stockton, when both were in primes

Payton was the no.1 leader of his team

While Stockton was a no.2 guy


But Payton won, by DESTROYING Stockton...

(Look at stats at page 2)
Glove_20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2006, 03:26 PM   #120
Kobe24
Banned
 
Kobe24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Land of 14 NBA Championships
Posts: 6,188
Default

Stockton IMO was better than Payton in almost everything except defense.
Kobe24 is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:35 PM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy