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Old 04-23-2013, 12:58 PM   #1
Kblaze8855
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Default What players do you suspect wont be remembered as they really were?

Weeks ago some guy on here annoyed the hell outta me claiming that Isiah Thomas was a scorer....looked to score before he thought to pass. As someone who came up watching him it just...stung a bit. Im sure its highlights and his numbers that make people assume that. So ill throw Isiah in as the example of what I mean. We see scoring numbers, highlights of him attacking off the dribble, and 40 points on a bad ankle....16 points in 90 seconds....and lost who he really was. Some of my response from that topic:



Quote:
You know that Isiah Thomas was putting up 14 assists a game at one point right? That Stockton, Oscar, and Magic are the only players(retired) who average more assists for their careers? That he had stretches where he had 20, 12, 15, 20, 19, 16, 17, 19, 18, 16, 12, 12, 24, 9, and 25 assists in consecutive games?

When he was asked to create shots for others...he did so at a rate that to that point...had never been done. When his team became more grind it out...defense first...playing through the post...multiple ball handlers...his assists dropped.

That is what being a point guard is. Doing what you are supposed to do....running your offense.


In Isiahs prime he wasnt even shooting that much...but people(who dont remember him) list him as someone with a score first mentality. In 86 he put up 21/11...he shot 16 times a game. On a team that took 95. Kidd in his prime took between 14-16 a game(end of Suns run and first couple years as a Net...id say that was him at his peak). In 03 Kidd took 16 shots a game on a team that only took 80. He took more of his teams shots than Isiah Thomas did. When Isiahs shots peaked...he was only taking 19 of 92. He was still shooting about as much as Jason Kidd in his prime. Kidd at one point was doing 13 of 78 shots...which is the same rate Isiah was shooting as a 20+ ppg scorer. No doubt there is more to it posessions wise(FTs, turnovers, and all). But really...Isiah was shooting just...a tad more than one of the more pass first points of all time.

I remember watching coaches break down clips on CBS....back when Hubie was on there. Nobody was of the opinion that Isiah was anything but a playmaker. Guys like Nique listed him as the person they would most want to play with because hes always looking to pass.

I watched him enter 4th quarters having taken like 6 shots 4 of them in transition and then take over and end up with 20 too many times to count. Dude broke the single season assist record...retired I think #3 in assists despite only playing till he was 32....


Others like that....


Allen Iverson. As time passes hes known more and more as a ball stopping, over dribbling, attacker and little else....but really...hes probably the leading scorer using off the ball movement of the last 20 years. His only comp is guys like Reggie who didnt really score much and guys who later in their careers became spot up shooters...like Ray Allen...

Who is another.

Hes the all time 3 point leader...shot like 8 threes a game at one point. But Ray wasnt a shooter. He was a scorer who did so largely by shooting. Different things.

Ray in his prime was out there blowing by guys and reverse dunking on half the Raptors lineup. Banging on Mcgrady. Using one of the meanest pullup jumpers in the league. Making game winning threes off the dribble after nice behind the back moves. Posting up small guards and driving by forwards.

But hes gonna be remembered a shooter....and sadly...

So might Jason Kidd. Imagine ISH 2022. How does someone who remembers his prime counter the fact that hes second all time in threes(or whatever he is by then...5th maybe) in response to their claim that he couldnt shoot? Topic is Kidd vs...like...lets say Steph Curry. You say Kidd was an awful shooter. Guy who is 22 at the time(13 now....) does not remember Kidd on the Suns or even Nets. He sees....top 5 all time in 3s.

How do you claim he couldnt shoot in the face of that? Talk about his midrange game? Only 6 of his 18-19 years did he not make a gang of threes. Will the kids of 2022 tell you you dont know what youre talking about?



The ultimate example of this might be Bill Russell. Ive heard it from 2 of his teammates that they might have missed him more on offense than defense. His outlet passing triggered a team that scored 125 points a game. He is I believe second all time in center assists when his were recorded differently. By modern rules he may have been a 19/25 9 assist player. He led his team in scoring on a title run or two. Had 30 point game 7s. Triple doubles out the ass in the playoffs. I believe he holds the finals record for shooting percentage in a series over some number of attempts(he shot 70%). But due to low ppg and shooting % his offense is often mentioned as a weakness. Not just compared to other elites....but...claimed to be a flat out weakness in his game.

He was out there telling Cousy where to stand/run each game so he could launch the outlet pass after Cousy let his man blow by him for Russell to block it. Look at the assist numbers. He puts up 22 points and 5 assists on a title run....when at the time you dont get an assist if your teammate had to dribble to score?

He was probably doing a legit 22/25/8 as a center. And his teammates loved it.

He shot like shit largely due to the volume over quality methods of the time but really...he was not a poor offensive player.


Id say we have

Russell
Isiah
Kidd
Ray Allen
AI

Who would be on your list?

Guys you suspect the future will never understand because of their numbers and highlights?


Im not sure people of the future are going to know just how good Tim Duncan was after his numbers started slipping....
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:03 PM   #2
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Default Re: What players do you suspect wont be remembered as they really were?

Jason Kidd and Ray Allen are definitely the top 2 guys that come to mind.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:04 PM   #3
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Default Re: What players do you suspect wont be remembered as they really were?

Pretty much everyone.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:08 PM   #4
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Default Re: What players do you suspect wont be remembered as they really were?

At first I thought personality wise in which case I doubt Dwight will be remembered as a ***** even though he is. In terms of play, honestly Kobe might get some backlash in years to come since people are becoming more stat obsessed
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:08 PM   #5
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Default Re: What players do you suspect wont be remembered as they really were?

Kobe won't be remembered as a chucker, but as a winner.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:09 PM   #6
Kblaze8855
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Default Re: What players do you suspect wont be remembered as they really were?

I can see Dirk making the "He couldnt do that these days" list within 10 years of retiring. His game has to be seen to be understood. Dude probably makes the worst(far as being contested) shots in the NBA. Now that hes lost his lift and just gets by on being crafty and sneaky quick in short bursts he never create space anymore. Just hits it anyway.

Some kid is gonna claim he would get blocked all day in 2025 even though he was shooting over guys like Tyrus Thomas without issue.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:10 PM   #7
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Default Re: What players do you suspect wont be remembered as they really were?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgodfather1
Kobe won't be remembered as a chucker, but as a winner.


I agree. People on places like this will always talk about FGAs and all. Most people wont even know what Kobe shot. Just what he won....right or wrong.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:11 PM   #8
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Default Re: What players do you suspect wont be remembered as they really were?

LBJ

Today, he's considered as a "ring chaser". 20+ years from now, no one will be bringing up that term but ppl will instead talk about how great he was and all of his accomplishments (MVPs, championship rings [yes, he'll win more], etc.).
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: What players do you suspect wont be remembered as they really were?

Walton
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:21 PM   #10
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Default Re: What players do you suspect wont be remembered as they really were?

Vince Carter. He is already labeled as a player who can nothing but dunks, when in reality he could literally do everything on the offensive end in his prime days.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:29 PM   #11
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Default Re: What players do you suspect wont be remembered as they really were?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgodfather1
Kobe won't be remembered as a chucker, but as a winner.

Sadly this is what he'll be remembered for instead of what he actually is.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:37 PM   #12
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Default Re: What players do you suspect wont be remembered as they really were?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
I agree. People on places like this will always talk about FGAs and all. Most people wont even know what Kobe shot. Just what he won....right or wrong.
Most people now even use general statements when talking about Kobe like warrior, winner, clutch, assassin, etc. Not to take anything away from what he has achieved in his career, but to the general population Kobe retiring will only help his career ranking.

I agree with you on Dirk. I'm by no means a good shooter, but i've been trying to do the Dirk fade lately, and man is that hard. I don't think people will be able to appreciate just how great Dirk is offensively.

Another player history will not remember favourbly will be Durant, if he doesn't win. They'll just see a great scorer, and nothing more. Pretty much like Elgin Baylor, without the rebounding.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:47 PM   #13
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Default Re: What players do you suspect wont be remembered as they really were?

Chris Bosh
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:49 PM   #14
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Default Re: What players do you suspect wont be remembered as they really were?

Dwight Howard --- will probably be remembered as better than he actually is due to his athleticism and dunks

Tim Duncan --- people will forget how great of a scorer he was (total package, who could give you 30-40+ point games)

Manu Ginobili --- people will forget he's started 400+ games, has heard MVP chants before, and carried SA at times before Parker came into his own

Gilbert Arenas --- better than current Harden yet will never be remembered that way because of the ending to his career and malcontent attitude

Dirk Nowitzki --- will be remembered as a HOF'er and "winner" through out his entire career yet was soft/beatable for alot of it and has a PO win percentage lower than KG's.

Bruce Bowen --- will be remembered as "dirty" largely due to a few JPEG's but was one of the best perimeter defenders who started 500 straight games without suspension and was in actuality pretty harmless
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:55 PM   #15
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Default Re: What players do you suspect wont be remembered as they really were?

wade will be interesting....

i dont even know what to think of him now..



Twenty five years from now I see people rating Duncan above Shaq... due to Shaq's many pitstops at the end of his career vs Duncan's consistency till now.
Damn you Shaq, you could've been top 5 forever.
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