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Old 01-25-2008, 11:45 AM   #1
kgisbigticket
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Default Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

I am going to still this post from a knowledgeable poster on two other sites. This is how he explains why MJ is the GOAT.

Well let's look at some of the candidates first.

1. MJ (6 Titles, 5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Career Leader in PPG Regular Season and Playoffs, and Most Points in Playoffs, etc)
2. Magic (5 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, # of APG titles)
3. Kareem (6 Titles, 6 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, Career Points leader)
4. Russell (11 Titles, 5 League MVP's)
5. Wilt (2 Titles, 4 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)

Close
6. Bird (3 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
7. Shaq (4 Titles, 1 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)

So if we break it down, let's go by the following:


League MVP's
6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone

Finals MVP's
6 - Michael Jordan
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Shaquille O'neal
3 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kareem
2- Bird
1 - Wilt
1 - Moses Malone

Championships
11 - Bill Russell
6 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
5 - Magic
4 - Shaq
4 - Duncan
2 - Wilt

Career Stats and Records - Regular Season
APG Leader: Magic
RPG Leader: Wilt
All-time Career Points Leader: Kareem
All-time PPG Leader: M.Jordan

Playoff Stats and Records - Playoffs
Total Assists Leader: Magic Johnson
APG Leader Playoffs: Magic Johnson
Total Rebounds Leader: Bill Russell
RPG Leader Playoffs: Bill Russell
All-time Career Points Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
All-time PPG Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan

So currently the only players that fit the bill in each category are both MJ's.

Now if you add the fact of Defensive Teams that would eliminate Magic. However, I won't do that to him because he is my 2nd favorite player.

Now if you want you can add in the TSN MVP award as well

TSN MVP
7 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
4 - Wilt
4 - Russell
2 - Moses
2 - Shaq
1 - Hakeem
1 - Magic

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...ree-team_x.htm

http://motownsportsrevival.blogspot....-all-time.html

So Kareem has the most league MVP's, MJ the most Finals MVP's, and Russell the most titles.

MJ is near the top in all of them though as is Russell, but Russell doesn't have the numbers to support him.

Also consider

Kareem won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1971
Magic won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1987
MJ won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1998.


Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?




http://www.answers.com/topic/nba-records

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.

As far as the playoffs go, here are a few things that stuck out in my mind:

Playoffs
Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.



MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record. What does that mean, well he was the only superstar to never lose a series in which his team was considered the favorite and better team. All the other legends lost series.

Also consider the following:

Is 18% a good percentage?

In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...

Pretty awful right?

Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...

Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...

Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.

That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...

10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!

I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.

Here are the playoff top games.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...vidual_points/

Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986

Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997

John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989

Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime

This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here:

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92

1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98

1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0


ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg.
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Old 01-25-2008, 11:46 AM   #2
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Default Re: Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

MJ has led in Offensive Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 1x.


1.) Offensive Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 28.7 (3)
1986-87 NBA 29.0 (4)
1987-88 NBA 39.6 (1)
1988-89 NBA 42.7 (1)
1989-90 NBA 44.3 (1)
1990-91 NBA 40.6 (1)
1991-92 NBA 34.2 (1)
1992-93 NBA 34.1 (1)
1995-96 NBA 38.5 (1)
1996-97 NBA 37.3 (1)

1997-98 NBA 28.6 (2)
NBA 413.5 (1)
Career 413.5 (1)



2.) MJ has led in Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 1x



Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 40 (3)
1986-87 NBA 43 (4)
1987-88 NBA 58 (1)
1988-89 NBA 59 (1)
1989-90 NBA 59 (1)
1990-91 NBA 56 (1)
1991-92 NBA 51 (1)
1992-93 NBA 50 (1)
1995-96 NBA 57 (1)
1996-97 NBA 52 (1)

1997-98 NBA 45 (2)


3.)



MJ has led in Player Wins 7x, and has finished second 3x including his rookie season.

Player Wins
1984-85 NBA 13.2 (2)
1986-87 NBA 15.9 (1)
1987-88 NBA 17.4 (1)
1988-89 NBA 16.8 (1)
1989-90 NBA 16.0 (1)
1990-91 NBA 15.8 (1)
1991-92 NBA 15.2 (1)

1992-93 NBA 15.4 (2)
1995-96 NBA 15.8 (2)
1996-97 NBA 14.8 (1)
1997-98 NBA 14.2 (2)


No other player in the GOAT discussion has dominated like that. We don't know what Wilt's win shares, player wins would have been, so we can only go by what we know and have, but despite that, Wilt only won twice and only once as a dominant player in the league. Good enough to be 2nd, but not the GOAT especially when one player has dominated like MJ did in the season, playoffs, and finals.

In my mind MJ is the GOAT, and I provided ample evidence of why I feel that way, but it is really close as guys like Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic and Bird on right their in the discussion, but when you consider how good MJ was on both ends of the court and how efficient he was as a player and the fact that he was a guard that in itself helps his case much more.


No one ever dominated for a decade in the season, playoffs and finals like MJ. Others may have dominated the season just as good, but not all 3 especially at the same time. Also MJ was depended upon more than any other Legend and that is why he won all of the Finals MVP and also the reason why he is the GOAT.
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Old 01-25-2008, 11:55 AM   #3
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Default Re: Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

Neither Finals MVPs nor DPOYs were kept when during Russell's tenture, or he'd have 9-11 Finals MVPs to go with 11 DPOYs: not to mention his 11 titles and 6 mvps (in which, if Russell's numbers weren't good enough, why he'd win 6 MVPS?!?).

Bill Russell is the GOAT.
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Old 01-25-2008, 11:56 AM   #4
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Default Re: Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

Didn't Loki have a similar post except better?
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:01 PM   #5
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Default Re: Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poeticism707
Neither Finals MVPs nor DPOYs were kept when during Russell's tenture, or he'd have 9-11 Finals MVPs to go with 11 DPOYs: not to mention his 11 titles and 6 mvps (in which, if Russell's numbers weren't good enough, why he'd win 6 MVPS?!?).

Bill Russell is the GOAT.
Did you even read the info on MJ's playoff performances? I thought not. His argument wasn't based on just awards.
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:01 PM   #6
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Default Re: Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poeticism707
Neither Finals MVPs nor DPOYs were kept when during Russell's tenture, or he'd have 9-11 Finals MVPs to go with 11 DPOYs: not to mention his 11 titles and 6 mvps (in which, if Russell's numbers weren't good enough, why he'd win 6 MVPS?!?).

Bill Russell is the GOAT.

He averaged 15 ppg in the 60's which is half of what MJ averaged. If Russell played today he would average 8 ppg. Also only 2 playoff rounds existed for Russell titles (at least 8 of them). Had he played 4 playoff rounds, results would have been different. Unless you prove to me that Russell dominated in the season, playoffs and finals and his numbers were just as good as MJ's then he isn't even close. Russell is currently like 82nd in PER. Not stellar by any means.
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:07 PM   #7
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Default Re: Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgisbigticket
He averaged 15 ppg in the 60's which is half of what MJ averaged. If Russell played today he would average 8 ppg. Also only 2 playoff rounds existed for Russell titles (at least 8 of them). Had he played 4 playoff rounds, results would have been different. Unless you prove to me that Russell dominated in the season, playoffs and finals and his numbers were just as good as MJ's then he isn't even close. Russell is currently like 82nd in PER. Not stellar by any means.

Russell averaged 15ppg AND 22.5RPG!!!

Are you kidding me? Russell's 22.5rpg CAREER AVERAGE is BY FAR more impressive than MJ's 30ppg scoring average. Add to that his 15ppg, and he more titles than he can wear on both hands (11), etc. he is far and away the GOAT.

Note: Wilt averaged about the same number of rpg for his career, but only two titles WILL NOT GET IT DONE.

I repeat: Bill Russell is the GOAT.
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:12 PM   #8
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Default Re: Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

NO! YOU ALL ARE FOOLS!


Kobe is the GOAT
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:14 PM   #9
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Default Re: Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

MJ is easily the GOAT. No doubt about it.
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:16 PM   #10
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Default Re: Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poeticism707
Russell averaged 15ppg AND 22.5RPG!!!

Are you kidding me? Russell's 22.5rpg CAREER AVERAGE is BY FAR more impressive than MJ's 30ppg scoring average. Add to that his 15ppg, and he more titles than he can wear on both hands (11), etc. he is far and away the GOAT.

Note: Wilt averaged about the same number of rpg for his career, but only two titles WILL NOT GET IT DONE.

I repeat: Bill Russell is the GOAT.



That's how you know the era in the 60's was weak. When you average more rebounds than points, than it shows how easy it was to get rebounds. There were only two guys over 6'10" and they were Wilt and Russell. Everyone else was 6'5". Like I said, Russell only played 2 rounds a year to get the title which is much easier not to mention he had 7 other hall of fame players on his team. Russell may be top 5, but nothing greater.
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:18 PM   #11
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Default Re: Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe Bryant 81
NO! YOU ALL ARE FOOLS!


Kobe is the GOAT

Kobe has never even been the best player in any season in the league. When he got titles he wasn't even the best player on his own team. He has never gotten out of the 1st round as the best player on his own team. He doesn't have a league nor finals mvp at all and never finished in top 2 in PER, Win Shares, Player Wins. Kobe needs to settle for being a top 3 player in the league nowadays or in any given season because he has never been the best in the league ever.
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:18 PM   #12
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Default Re: Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgisbigticket


That's how you know the era in the 60's was weak. When you average more rebounds than points, than it shows how easy it was to get rebounds. There were only two guys over 6'10" and they were Wilt and Russell. Everyone else was 6'5". Like I said, Russell only played 2 rounds a year to get the title which is much easier not to mention he had 7 other hall of fame players on his team. Russell may be top 5, but nothing greater.

There were plenty of legit 7' and taller players.

The same can be said of this and Jordan's era:

its weak because it's so easy to score (hence scoring goes up, player averages go up, etc).
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:30 PM   #13
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:55 PM   #14
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Default Re: Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poeticism707
Neither Finals MVPs nor DPOYs were kept when during Russell's tenture, or he'd have 9-11 Finals MVPs to go with 11 DPOYs: not to mention his 11 titles and 6 mvps (in which, if Russell's numbers weren't good enough, why he'd win 6 MVPS?!?).

Bill Russell is the GOAT.
maybe. no telling. sam jones was their top scorer several years and hit 2 series winning shots. when russell was trying to inbound the ball with a 1 point lead and threw it off his own backboard for a turnover, havlicek famously stole the laker's inbound pass to save the day. cousy was the one who orchestrated one title and then dribbled out the clock (famously again) to get the team a big finals win. since we don't know exactly what russell contributed, and all the clutch plays we know of were performed by other teammates, it seems a bit premature, though not unreasonable, to assume that he would have won the majority of the finals mvps.

i mean look at parker winning it over duncan. duncan clearly did more all-around, but the award went to the guy who carried the scoring burden. might have worked that way back then too. hell, west won a finals mvp on the losing end of a series because he was a big scorer, but never won a regular season mvp. voters seem to value playoff points.

even if he did win all 11 finals mvps that wouldn't mean he actually made as much of an impact in winning them as other performers have. i've heard you argue that duncan's superior defense and comparable though admittedly lesser offense puts him above shaq who was really more one dimensional. well shouldn't other goat candidates with comparable though admittedly lesser defense and undeniable offensive superiority to bill russell count in the same way? one guy is the best at one end and passable at the other. the other guys are the great at both ends (and in some cases the best at one, the other, or both).

you also were happy to point out the other day during a duncan thread that his team lacks superstar help for him and he has won with some of the weaker casts of any champ. so you're not above looking at teammates to help define how well a player performs. well russ had a slew of stars around him. if having less help makes duncan a more impressive champ, does having more help diminish the impressiveness of russ?

a similar question is whether russ is a guy you could build a title around without having all that offensive support. the other night against la, manu and tony were off, and timmy stepped up and carried the load offensively. he could do that. he does do that when he's got a mismatch like turiaf or kwame on him. did russ do that? could russ do that? maybe. my older relatives think russ would be a superior version of duncan if he played today. i'd like some evidence though.

russ's highest playoff production was 22.4 /gm on 46% shooting. he had two teammates scoring above 20 / gm and his points accounted for rouhgly 19% of the team total (119.8 / gm). tim duncan's lowest playoff production (rookie year) was 20.7 / game on 52% shooting. he had zero teammates scoring above 20 per game and his points accounted for 22% of his team's total (94.2 / gm). so russ's best playoff offensive impact was lower than duncan's worst. to compound it, russ earned his numbers playing at a much higher pace. even out the pace and you get 17.9 / game on 46% shooting. in his best year. playing 48 / gm. that's not to say that he couldn't have become better at playing a larger offensive role and couldn't have scored more if he wasn't the defensive anchor on a running team. but when you look at his actual, factual contribution, not his what if contribution, that's what it comes down to. defensive dominance, and 18 pts on very poor shooting for a center. no way does hakeem's (also the best defender of his era) team win with that kind of offensive production from him.

declaring russ the ultimate without asking any of these questions continues to seem a little close-minded to me. please note that i'm not arguing in favor of anyone else in this post, just questioning the merit of bill russell as the undisputed greatest player of all time when he may have been less responsible for his team's titles than other candidates were for theirs.
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:57 PM   #15
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Default Re: Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chains5000



It kinda is a stupid argument...

MJ is known as the real GOBB.
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