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Old 01-26-2008, 02:07 PM   #16
geeWiz15
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Default Re: Which team is more talented without their star player: Hornets or Lakers

Lakers without Kobe would do better IMO. but let me qualify that with a lot of paragraphs.

first of all, recognize that NBA teams are built around their best player. this is a pretty obvious dynamic because any NBA GM, any good GM at least, has some sense of a historical perspective and realizes that good teams, and great teams especially, stem from one individual player. so ideally, the rest of the team is going to stem from that one player.

but depending on what kind of player that one player is, you're going to have different constructions. historically, look at what good teams built around great ball-dominating PGs (and this is not meant in a bad way- I put Nash, Kidd when the Nets were in the Finals, even Stockton, etc in this category. excluded are types like Tony Parker and Derek Fisher, to pick easy examples) look like. it's a lot of finishers at the 2-5 positions. usually you've got one big man who is great at finishing (Stoudemire, Malone, D West, Boozer, Kenyon Martin, Kemp), usually at least one utility player, and system players that finish when they should finish after being set up by the PG.

that's the basic construction. archetype, maybe. you got a great PG, this is what teams try to surround him with. if you think about it, all these good PG centric teams look basically the same. but notice what's missing. what's missing is other guys who can create. it's all about giving your PG guys to pass to. if you have another creator, you get congested and the original creator loses his effectiveness- see the Knicks of last year if you don't believe me, or even the current Nets.

take the PG out of this construction and you lose everything. now, because the team is a disorganized mess without an engine, does that mean the supporting cast is inferior to a team that does not rely on its star player as heavily? if the Lakers lose Kobe, they can survive. they're not good but they can survive. because everyone on the Lakers can do to some degree what Kobe does. but nobody on the Hornets can do what Chris Paul does. does this mean Chris Paul is a better player or that the Lakers supporting cast is better because it gets along better without its star? I'm inclined to say no. these teams were designed with their star players in mind. to remove them from that context isn't fair or relevant. you can't consider the other players without the star or vice versa.

the best example there is I think is the Suns without Nash. the Suns without Nash don't win games... but separating the star from the team is unfair because they came up together. Nash + supporting cast is greater, and in fact other, than the sum of its parts. this is where the "Nash is MVP because they're a 60 win team with him, 30 win team without" misconception came from. because it's not that simple when you consider how teams are constructed.

Last edited by geeWiz15 : 01-26-2008 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 01-26-2008, 02:15 PM   #17
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Default Re: Which team is more talented without their star player: Hornets or Lakers

The Hornets have the better team outside of their star players.
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Old 01-26-2008, 02:34 PM   #18
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Default Re: Which team is more talented without their star player: Hornets or Lakers

GeeWiz makes a good point. I think the Hornets supporting cast is much better but the Hornets are a team of specialists everyone has a very specific role. West Peja and Chandler don't create their own shots.
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Old 01-26-2008, 03:48 PM   #19
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Default Re: Which team is more talented without their star player: Hornets or Lakers

I will have to say the starters for the Hornets are better than the Laks, but the laks bench is better. However, if u play the starters more than the bench wouldn't be that effective, so the balances has to go to the Hornets. If people really belive that the Hornets starters are worst without the the star players. The difference maker is West for the Hornets, which is way better than any Lak outside of Kobe and Bynum.
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Old 01-26-2008, 03:59 PM   #20
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Default Re: Which team is more talented without their star player: Hornets or Lakers

Quote:
Originally Posted by amfirst
I will have to say the starters for the Hornets are better than the Laks, but the laks bench is better. However, if u play the starters more than the bench wouldn't be that effective, so the balances has to go to the Hornets. If people really belive that the Hornets starters are worst without the the star players. The difference maker is West for the Hornets, which is way better than any Lak outside of Kobe and Bynum.
But how much of West's success is based on Paul's performance?
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:08 PM   #21
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Default Re: Which team is more talented without their star player: Hornets or Lakers

I agree with GeeWiz. I think that the Lakers without Kobe would be better.

One thing that people are forgetting is that Lamar Odom's impact increases tenfold when he's playing without Kobe. To me, he's a better player when Kobe's not on the floor with him.

Plus without Kobe, the Lakers would still have Bynum, solid PG play with Fisher/Farmar, and a solid bench.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:42 PM   #22
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Default Re: Which team is more talented without their star player: Hornets or Lakers

Sasha and Ariza would start given the way everyone's played so far this year. Without a question actually. Just to point that out (or reiterate steve's point).

The Lakers are better, assuming complete health, although it's quite close. Kobe and Paul have a pretty similar impact for their squads. Bynum in the middle, with Odom taking (hopefully) a more assertive role on offense, and a pretty solid perimeter defense with Fish/Sasha/Ariza starting. I'd personally feel more comfortable with the Lakers squad over the Hornets one.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:53 PM   #23
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Default Re: Which team is more talented without their star player: Hornets or Lakers

It's easily the Hornets.

West and Chandler are right there with Marion and Stoudemire as the best front lines in the west. They also have one of the best wing shooting combo's in the league in Peterson and Stojakovic. Jackson is a solid backup.

The only thing the Hornets lack is depth. They are a veteran team lead by a young stud in Chris Paul.
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Old 01-26-2008, 05:02 PM   #24
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Default Re: Which team is more talented without their star player: Hornets or Lakers

Quote:
Originally Posted by konex
NOK easily.

Peja >>>>>>> Vlad
West >>>> Odom
Bynum = Chandler (Sorry Lakers fans, it's true)
Butler >>> Luke
Fish = Jackson
Farmar = Pargo

I won't even mention Kwame...

It's not close, really..

Not really every time CP3 go to the bench they look loss, is like Nash in PHX in paper PHX >>>> that any other team without their superstar, but in real life once Nash seat on the bench or miss a game Phx became a average team at best.

CP3 is the Hornets, Tyson without him probably score 2 points a game, West play most of the time a two man games with CP3 without him he will see tons of double teams, peja is no more the player he use to be, and Jackson is a good score but he is a shoot first type of guard.

With Kobe out Odom, Luke etc play better because many time they get cut looking a Kobe instead of playing their game.

I will say Lakers by a small margin
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:07 PM   #25
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Default Re: Which team is more talented without their star player: Hornets or Lakers

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve
But how much of West's success is based on Paul's performance?

actually most of West points come off of pick and pops from Chris Paul

My take on this is that NOL - Paul has better talent than the lakers- Kobe but the players on Lakers can operate better w/o Kobe than the NOL can w/o Paul.Trust me,if you let Lamar Odom have the ball more and run the Lakers like he did when he was in Miami,the Lakers woud still operate.Take Paul off NOL,and watch how wack players like West (pick and pop player),Chandler(all alleys) and Peja(all spot ups from Pauls driving and kicking) will look.

Lakers w/o Kobe are better than the NOL w/o Paul easily

Odom when he's on his game>>>anyone on NOL outside of Paul

many can't see this because Kobe hinders Odoms production.

Last edited by Diesel J : 01-26-2008 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:09 PM   #26
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Default Re: Which team is more talented without their star player: Hornets or Lakers

Quote:
Originally Posted by el_locoteee
Not really every time CP3 go to the bench they look loss, is like Nash in PHX in paper PHX >>>> that any other team without their superstar, but in real life once Nash seat on the bench or miss a game Phx became a average team at best.

CP3 is the Hornets, Tyson without him probably score 2 points a game, West play most of the time a two man games with CP3 without him he will see tons of double teams, peja is no more the player he use to be, and Jackson is a good score but he is a shoot first type of guard.

great comparison

Quote:
With Kobe out Odom, Luke etc play better because many time they get cut looking a Kobe instead of playing their game.


exactly what I just said
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:23 PM   #27
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Default Re: Which team is more talented without their star player: Hornets or Lakers

Quote:
Lakers w/o Kobe are better than the NOL w/o Paul easily

Odom when he's on his game>>>anyone on NOL outside of Paul

many can't see this because Kobe hinders Odoms production

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gimme a break on that one. Odom is still a little B*tch even without Kobe.
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:24 PM   #28
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Default Re: Which team is more talented without their star player: Hornets or Lakers

Paper rosters don't = watching how the team plays. If you haven't seen both teams play more than one game this year, then I'd suggest not commenting in this thread.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:03 PM   #29
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Default Re: Which team is more talented without their star player: Hornets or Lakers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy2k8
Gimme a break on that one. Odom is still a little B*tch even without Kobe.


watch how Odom played on Miami when he controlled the ball
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:11 PM   #30
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Default Re: Which team is more talented without their star player: Hornets or Lakers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Showtime
Paper rosters don't = watching how the team plays. If you haven't seen both teams play more than one game this year, then I'd suggest not commenting in this thread.

the question said "most talented"...Seeing NO struggle without Paul is because of the pg dominated system they run, not because of lack of talent. NO is easily a more talented team without Kobe. I think people dont understand what talented means.
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