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Old 01-26-2008, 04:18 PM   #1
brantonli
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Default How do you measure the defence of big men?

There is the obvious statistic of blocks, but that doesn't explain the whole thing, for example Dwight Howard is averaging 2.6 blocks a game while Stoudemire is averaging 2.2 blocks a game, but nobody would say that their defence is close.

To me, defence isn't really a quantifiable statistic, but then the things fans bring up, such as the intimidation factor, size, they are all fairly subjective. So what would be the best way to measure defence of big men?
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:19 PM   #2
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brantonli
There is the obvious statistic of blocks, but that doesn't explain the whole thing, for example Dwight Howard is averaging 2.6 blocks a game while Stoudemire is averaging 2.2 blocks a game, but nobody would say that their defence is close.

To me, defence isn't really a quantifiable statistic, but then the things fans bring up, such as the intimidation factor, size, they are all fairly subjective. So what would be the best way to measure defence of big men?


Opposing Point in the Paint when he is on the floor, and Inside FG %, offensive rebound by opposing team with him in the floor.

82games have one of the best stats to help you.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:20 PM   #3
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Just by watching them really.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Ok, but what really bugs me is when people like to throw the 'soft' label around, especially Yao.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:23 PM   #5
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywalker
Just by watching them really.

Basically. And that goes for big men, little men, and swingmen.

Defensive stats only tell you half the story. You really need to watch the games to measure different players' defense.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:26 PM   #6
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

so take amare for instance who is not a great defensive player, but the opposing big man dont stop him either. so if his man gets off on him and he also gets his did they both play bad defense,or is it because phoenix is a bad defensive team overall that most of the blame will fall on the bigs?
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:29 PM   #7
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

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Originally Posted by Fatal_Flaw
Basically. And that goes for big men, little men, and swingmen.

Defensive stats only tell you half the story. You really need to watch the games to measure different players' defense.

But you need to know about basketball.

Fro sample a guy make a sick block or make a mad face when he get a rebound and 80% of the casual fans will say wow what a defensive player he is, but then don't realize the guy miss his man in the defensive rotation, overplay the player and allow him to penetrate don't close on shooters, don't box and allow players to get extra rebounds etc.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:30 PM   #8
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by omarnyc
so take amare for instance who is not a great defensive player, but the opposing big man dont stop him either. so if his man gets off on him and he also gets his did they both play bad defense,or is it because phoenix is a bad defensive team overall that most of the blame will fall on the bigs?

No Amare is playing out of position is like letting a PG defend a SF, if he defend PF he will do much better.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:32 PM   #9
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Man defense (post and face-up)
Pick and roll defense
Help rotations
Shot blocking/altering
Hustle

That's about it.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:35 PM   #10
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by el_locoteee
No Amare is playing out of position is like letting a PG defend a SF, if he defend PF he will do much better.

right, thats my point i dont think we can say amare is a bad defender until we get to see him play at his true position
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:36 PM   #11
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
Man defense (post and face-up)
Pick and roll defense
Help rotations
Shot blocking/altering
Hustle

That's about it.


That's a nice list, I'll try it on Yao since I'm most familiar with him:

Pick and roll defence: Not too good, I've seen too many guards shoot straight over Yao since he doesn't like to come out too far.
Help rotations: His rotations are good from what I see.
Shot blocking/altering: You can't be a bad defender when you're 7'6 and 300+ pounds, and he does alter quite a lot of shots (not from midrange onwards though)
Hustle: I'll have to mark Yao down in this category. Certainly he can be very focused, but hustle play is just way more difficult in a 7'6 body since it can easily look like a flagrant foul (see Boozer's foul on...somebody, but by accident he landed on his head and Boozer got a flagrant). He also doesn't seem to have the mentatlity to hustle, and Biedrins in an interview confirmed this.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:37 PM   #12
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

YAO Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production

C inside/close FG% 45 - PTS 17.2 - Reb 12.6 - PER 14.6

Camby Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production

C inside/close FG% 57 - PTS 19.6 - Reb 15.2 - PER 17.3


YAO post defense >>>> Camby post defense
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:40 PM   #13
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

el_locoteee, I think that the minutes that the players play is important as well, but the difference between Yao and camby's playing time is about 2 minutes, so that wouldn't be a factor in this case. But I'm surprised by Camby's oppo. PER, however Camby is a great stat-stuffer, his blocks are keeping me afloat in one of my fantasy leagues.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:48 PM   #14
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by el_locoteee
YAO Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production

C inside/close FG% 45 - PTS 17.2 - Reb 12.6 - PER 14.6

Camby Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production

C inside/close FG% 57 - PTS 19.6 - Reb 15.2 - PER 17.3


YAO post defense >>>> Camby post defense

Camby is really a lone defender underneath, and it's hard to merit someone's defense on statistical advantage in one single positional matchup.

Camby has some of the worst help defenders in the league, making it even harder for him to defend the paint.

That said, from what I have seen, Yao does a great job against back to the basket, low post players, on the level with Camby, who is more of a roamer anyway.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:48 PM   #15
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Defense is about how well you stop your man, nothing to do with steals or blocks, though they are good thing, just not something to base your judgement on. A good defensive player should be able to stop their player getting the ball, that's the first step to take.

So for example, let's say Spurs and Cavs are playing. Lebron is being guarded by Bowen. Brucey boy is doing an excellent job of playing pass denial on Lebron and he (Lebron) isn't seeing much of the ball, also when Lebron is getting the ball, he's either having to get rid of the ball quick or jack up a 30 foot shot because Bowen is playing great defense. Now, Bowen is subbed and in comes Finley (I don't who the Spurs back up SF is, so for arguments sake let's say Finley). Finley isn't able to keep up with Lebron and he (Lebron) starts to get the ball alot more than when Bowen was guarding him. Lebron, whilst Finley is guarding him, shoots a much higher FG%, than when Bowen was guarding him.

This is only an example so don't start arguing about it, it's only an example, not real. But it shows that Bowen is a better defender than Finley, because he is playing pass denial, stopping his man from getting the ball.

Same thing goes for big men.

The guy who can play great pass denial has already got the edge over the other guy, because the guy playing pass denial isn't letting his man get the ball to start off with, taking away the threat of an easy bucket. It's great being able to stop your man from scoring when he has the ball, but it's better when you can stop your man from getting the ball at all. If your man does get the ball, then you've got to know what to do and where to be, because if he get's past you, you're screwed.
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