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Old 01-26-2008, 04:49 PM   #16
el_locoteee
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brantonli
el_locoteee, I think that the minutes that the players play is important as well, but the difference between Yao and camby's playing time is about 2 minutes, so that wouldn't be a factor in this case. But I'm surprised by Camby's oppo. PER, however Camby is a great stat-stuffer, his blocks are keeping me afloat in one of my fantasy leagues.

His block are more coming from the weak side, you rarely see him block a player in the post.

He is great in steals and hustle, but that is all he have to do. tell him to do that and score 20+ vs double and tipple team. He probably fall dead on the floor.

We saw when Camby try to defend Yao one on one, Yao was chilling scoring at will, same with Tyson, he couldn't stop Yao one on one,they are tall but to skinny, they can be easily post and move in the paint from any big center that have some post game.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:56 PM   #17
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by el_locoteee
YAO Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production

C inside/close FG% 45 - PTS 17.2 - Reb 12.6 - PER 14.6

Camby Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production

C inside/close FG% 57 - PTS 19.6 - Reb 15.2 - PER 17.3


YAO post defense >>>> Camby post defense

Camby's post defense is average at best. That's why he doesn't guard big men like Duncan/Yao/Kaman/Bynum/KG the majority of the time. That's K-Mart/Nene's job.

However, Camby is the best help defender in the league without question. His timing is incredible. At the same time, he's arguably the best rebounder in the game.

I didn't think he should've been DPOY last year, but I'd vote for him this year.
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Old 01-26-2008, 05:13 PM   #18
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Good thread. For me, it comes down to just two (basic) things: Physical presence and intellectual impact.

Big men are supposed to be game changers, mainly in the paint. They're supposed to swat anything that comes in, contest close shots and rebound. Those are all things that fall under physical presence. When I'm judging a big man on his defense, I consider: how much they change the game just by being on the court, their statistics, their footwork, defensive awareness, etc. A true great big defender can create havok on the defensive end of the court and be the main factor a team wins, while ending the game with as low as 0 points. Take Russell for example. He wasn't a heavy-duty scorer - career 15 ppg scorer on 44%. He could have 8 points to end a game, but still have 20 rebounds and God knows how many blocks and completely change the game just by being on the court. And that's not even considering how many shot he'd alter. Altering a shot can be just as valuable as blocking one sometimes. Statistics are overrated when talking about defenders. Bruce Bowen is a prime example. Can't steal the ball exceptionally well but he's a top 5 perimeter defender. Stealing, blocking, taking charges are all good for a start when judging a defender, but by no means does it tell the whole story, or probably even 1/4 of the story.

A great way to judge a big man defender is simply his presence. When he enters the game, does the opposing team suddenly have trouble scoring in the paint, or scoring period? Does the man he's guarding suddenly go on a cold streak? Best player I can think of right now that make the biggest change on D is KG. I don't say Duncan because with or without him, the Spurs are a great defensive team - Duncan just takes them to the next level defensively; the elite level. Without KG, well, just look at last year's Celtics' defensive stats. Nothing special at all. If a player can simply enter the game, and te rest of the team's defensive awareness and energy level instantly rises just because he's there and he makes his teammates confident, chances are he's a great defender and stresses defense a lot to his teammates.

Defensive awareness is an underrated portion. How well does the player read the court on defense? How well does he read the opposing offense and recognize how to guard it? How well does he know where to be to take a charge, or rotate or contest shots, or not get in foul trouble on D? These are all defensive aspects that fall under court savvy and awareness. The players' visual perception of the court and his opponents is a severe key to being a good defensive player.

Footwork, too. Duncan is probably the best defensive big with the best footwork. Quickness, strength, court smarts, he has it all. Footwork plays a big role on playing defense. A lot of people just think "stay in front of your man and you're a good defender". Well, it's hard to stay in front of your man when he's pivoting and jabstepping and pumpfaking and you can't control your feet and stop him. Where you are on defense is a factor as well. Also hands. Where is the players' hands? When he's guarding a post player, are his hands in the right spot? Is he disrupting his man while not getting a ton of fouls? Is his hand constantly up while he's guarding a shooter? Does he defend close to shooters and further away from slashers, or vice versa? Hands and feet are massive sections of playing good defense.

And my favorite, intellectual impact. Instantly when I think of that, I think Gary Payton. The guy was always in your head. Talking trash, playing physically, making his opponents fear him. Literally fear him to the point where players would hate to be guarded by GP. Stockton, too, but he was more of a physical defender than a mental one. I remember Payton once saying in an interview that one of, if not his favorite part of guarding someone was making them fear him. That's what great intellectual defenders do. They get in your head, make you nervous and uncomfortable, make you want to pass rather than be aggressive. The best way to start out a game on defense is to intimidate the man you're guarding. If you can weaken his confidence, you're one step closer to stopping him.

With that said, my top 5 defensive big men.

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Dwight
4. Camby
5. Chandler

Okafor just missed the cut. And on a side note, regardless of how much people make fun of Ben Wallace and how old he is and his sub-par stats, and how he hasn't produced as much as people hoped he would, can't deny the fact that he's still a great defensive player.
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Old 01-26-2008, 05:32 PM   #19
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
With that said, my top 5 defensive big men.

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Dwight
4. Camby
5. Chandler


Is that the list of player you like??????

Because on Defense in the paint Yao is probably the best impacting the game in NBA today. no wonder Houston have been one of the best defense in NBA even when JVG is no longer the coach (now 2nd best in defensive efficiency.

And vs Duncan, Dwight, Camby, Chandler. and any other good center have struggles vs Yao. and Yao flourish vs them. Do you want me to bring their stats head to head?
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Old 01-26-2008, 05:36 PM   #20
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

That was an excellent post richie, great read and I completely agree. Though I don't agree with this bit;

Quote:
They're supposed to swat anything that comes in, contest close shots and rebound.
Personally, I don't think that should be the first thing on anyone's mind when wanting to play good defense. The first thing, like I said in my other post, is to stop your guy from getting the ball at all, doing that eliminates the chance of getting the ball into the paint and creating an easy shot attempt. If your man does get the ball, most likely because you're not playing pass denial, then you need to know what to do and where to be, most of which you explained excellently in your post.

You need to read him, feel him and most importantly know his tendencies; does he like to go left, does he like to go right, does he like to use fake moves, does he like to step out and shoot, et cetera et cetera, knowing these things about your man all contribute to being a great defender and can be the difference between being an ok defender and being an excellent defender.
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Old 01-26-2008, 07:13 PM   #21
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

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And vs Duncan, Dwight, Camby, Chandler. and any other good center have struggles vs Yao. and Yao flourish vs them. Do you want me to bring their stats head to head?
Last year Yao averaged 21 and 6 in 2 games vs the Spurs. Averages 21 and 6 that same year against the Hornets in 3 games. Other than that, yes, he's pretty solid statistically against the Spurs, Magic, Nuggets and Hornets. However keep in mind Yao is almost never guarded by Camby, and plus the Nuggets aren't an elite defensive team. I'm not too sure that Chandler guards Yao a lot, either. (Correct me if I'm wrong). Not too sure about Duncan either because he might get into foul trouble. Dwight probably does though. Yao plays pretty well against those teams, not neccessarily against those specific players, because they're not always guarding him.

The only person I could really see Yao having a chance of gettng ranked over out of those 5 is Chandler. Yao's size and blocks and defensive rebounds is enough to be a great factor in his defensive ranking, but Chandler is just a beast. 2nd in defensive rating on 05. Yao has never been in the totp 5 in that category. I'd put him ahead of Yao on rebounding, overall and defensively. Lead the league in ORPG twice and 2nd in RPG last year. Yao is the better blocker and has the size to be intimidating, but there are times when he doesn't change the game at all defensively. Chandler is a serious shot alterer and a good help defender.

Without Chandler on the court, the Hornets' allowed PPG per 100 possession goes up by 1.4. For Yao, it goes DOWN by 0.2, meaning they defend points per possession better when Yao isn't even on the court.

And Kebab, you're right. I guess saying big men are supposed to be great blockers is the prototypical way to look at it.
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Old 01-26-2008, 08:01 PM   #22
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal_Flaw
However, Camby is the best help defender in the league without question.

AK and Josh Smith make it a question.
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Old 01-26-2008, 08:16 PM   #23
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by el_locoteee
But you need to know about basketball.

Fro sample a guy make a sick block or make a mad face when he get a rebound and 80% of the casual fans will say wow what a defensive player he is, but then don't realize the guy miss his man in the defensive rotation, overplay the player and allow him to penetrate don't close on shooters, don't box and allow players to get extra rebounds etc.

Yep. The hard part is the best defender is the guy you often don't notice. He's always in position so he's not gambling for steals or weakside blocks, and half the time the man he's on passes up the shot attempt because he's too well covered.

Watch a guy like Rodman: aside from his rebounds, his stats and big plays were pretty subtle, but he could effectively guard/harass anyone from Malone, to Miller, to Shaq.
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Old 01-26-2008, 08:16 PM   #24
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by el_locoteee
YAO Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production

C inside/close FG% 45 - PTS 17.2 - Reb 12.6 - PER 14.6

Camby Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production

C inside/close FG% 57 - PTS 19.6 - Reb 15.2 - PER 17.3


YAO post defense >>>> Camby post defense
camby's not a great 1 on 1 defender. he'd be better on a team where he could defend 4s, but he can't hold position on serious low post centers. however that stat is inflated because he has to leave his man to help on all the penetration that the crappy denver perimeter defenders let through. so his man's getting drop passes and easy put backs while he's rotating quite a bit. try duncan. he should give you a better case study of a great big man defender.

in any case if yao's holding his man to 45% shooting that's tremendous. centers should always shoot better than that.
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Old 01-26-2008, 08:29 PM   #25
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidonKs
Man defense (post and face-up)
Pick and roll defense
Help rotations
Shot blocking/altering
Hustle

That's about it.

That's a pretty good list. I'd add in boxing out/defensive rebounding on to the list, as well as drawing charges(although that may be counted as either altering/help rotations.

I find blocks to be a pretty good statistic. One of the greatest impacts a big man can have on defense these days is the ability to alter an opposing player's shot/keep players from penetrating. Drawing a charge is an underrated aspect, as you get the ball every time, and the other team gets a foul. Drawing a charge can be risky if you're not great on your rotations though.

A blocked shot doesn't always results in a possession for the defensive side, but a good shotblocker does more than just block shots. Even when a guy like Dwight doesn't block an opposing penetrating player's shot attempt, he'll usually still alter it, and cause a tougher attempt. No one wants to penetrate when they know a guy like Camby is waiting for them, forcing the offensive team to rely on other tactics to get the ball in the rim.

On ball defense in the post is important, but the lack of skilled post players diminishes the need for great interior man defenders, although it still is a terrific skill to have against teams with great post players. It's pretty much a necessity if you want to go deep in the play-offs, as you need a guy to stop Duncan/Yao/KG/etc if you want to win. The ability to defend the frequently used pick and roll is also important.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:13 PM   #26
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
him.

With that said, my top 5 defensive big men.

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Dwight
4. Camby
5. Chandler


You know very little about basketball if Sheed isn't in your top 5. He's the best post defender in the league today and his defensive awareness is outstanding.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celibacy4Life
You know very little about basketball if Sheed isn't in your top 5. He's the best post defender in the league today and his defensive awareness is outstanding.

You're right, Rasheed is considered notoriously hard to post up against due to his height and length. He's very tough on defense on big men.
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Old 01-27-2008, 12:01 AM   #28
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
Last year Yao averaged 21 and 6 in 2 games vs the Spurs. Averages 21 and 6 that same year against the Hornets in 3 games. Other than that, yes, he's pretty solid statistically against the Spurs, Magic, Nuggets and Hornets. However keep in mind Yao is almost never guarded by Camby, and plus the Nuggets aren't an elite defensive team. I'm not too sure that Chandler guards Yao a lot, either. (Correct me if I'm wrong). Not too sure about Duncan either because he might get into foul trouble. Dwight probably does though. Yao plays pretty well against those teams, not neccessarily against those specific players, because they're not always guarding him.

The only person I could really see Yao having a chance of gettng ranked over out of those 5 is Chandler. Yao's size and blocks and defensive rebounds is enough to be a great factor in his defensive ranking, but Chandler is just a beast. 2nd in defensive rating on 05. Yao has never been in the totp 5 in that category. I'd put him ahead of Yao on rebounding, overall and defensively. Lead the league in ORPG twice and 2nd in RPG last year. Yao is the better blocker and has the size to be intimidating, but there are times when he doesn't change the game at all defensively. Chandler is a serious shot alterer and a good help defender.

Without Chandler on the court, the Hornets' allowed PPG per 100 possession goes up by 1.4. For Yao, it goes DOWN by 0.2, meaning they defend points per possession better when Yao isn't even on the court.

And Kebab, you're right. I guess saying big men are supposed to be great blockers is the prototypical way to look at it.


YAO vs DUNCAN (3 games)
Yao 21pts - 12RPG - 2.7BPG (52FG%)
Duncan 21pts -13.3RPG - 2.0BPG (45FG%)

They did not defend each other until the final quarter.

YAO VS CAMBY (2 games)
24PPG - 16RPG - 3BPG (45FG%)
3.5PPG - 13.5RPG - 4BPG (20FG%)

Yao was on Camby most of the time when he was on the floor. Yao was guard by everybody double and triple team most of the time, Camby defend him a few times in Houston one on one and he was doing so bad they stop that strategy.

YAO VS CHANDLERr (1 game)
19PPG - 17RPG - 4BPG (46FG%)
7PPG - 14RPG -BPG (33FG%)

Yao guard Tyson one on one and sometime just help on D.West and forgot about Chandler. Yao was double most of the time specially with T-mac out

YAO VS DH (2 games)
Yao 22.5PPG - 13.5RPG - 1.5BPG (47FG%)
DH 18PPG - 9.5RPG - 2 (50FG%)

Yao single team DH most of the time, DH got help 90% of the time.
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Old 01-27-2008, 09:13 AM   #29
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celibacy4Life
You know very little about basketball if Sheed isn't in your top 5. He's the best post defender in the league today and his defensive awareness is outstanding.
Oh yeah, forgot Sheed.
Quote:
and any other good center have struggles vs Yao.
Quote:
Yao was on Camby most of the time when he was on the floor.
Quote:
Yao guard Tyson one on one and sometime just help on D.West and forgot about Chandler.
Camby and Chandler aren't offensive players to being with. I just think Dwight, Duncan, Garnett, Camby and arguably Chandler's defensive presence is greater than Yao's. Yao's mains defensive presence is just his height and weight, not really for how he plays defense.
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Old 01-27-2008, 09:51 AM   #30
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Default Re: How do you measure the defence of big men?

by comparances to eddy curry
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