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Old 06-09-2006, 02:35 AM   #16
Zombles
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Hakeem - 32.8 PPG
Shaq -28 PPG

Shaq averaged 1 more rebound and assist per game, but given how close the game's were I think Hakeem's extra5 points give him the edge in the series.

Plus he had the game 1 game-winner.
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Old 06-09-2006, 03:00 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Zombles
Probably since he got outplayed by The Dream, and got swept.

Don't want this to become the catalyst for the thread Hakeem vs Shaq redux but maybe it's b/c of youtube highlights, selected memories and/or passing on word of mouth that started as fact and has become mythical (this board is the guiltiest party) that people believe what Hakeem did to David a week earlier he also did to Shaq. I saw the games on live TV, vhs and even was at the O'Rena and saw no such thing that many here believe.
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Old 06-09-2006, 03:04 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombles
Hakeem - 32.8 PPG
Shaq -28 PPG

Shaq averaged 1 more rebound and assist per game, but given how close the game's were I think Hakeem's extra5 points give him the edge in the series.

Plus he had the game 1 game-winner.

I don't see how that's really outplaying someone. It was Orlando's lack of outside shooting and Houston's abundance of it that gave them the 4-game sweep. Shaq was great in those finals.
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Old 06-09-2006, 06:36 AM   #19
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Please dont turn this into the young Shaq vs Hakeem discussion. Cause we had plenty of those. There are two groups, both pleading the opposite cause and the casual an thinks Hakeem outplayed Shaq, because his team swept the magic. Theres more behind it, but thas it.

Anyways, Michaels statlines in those 2 years are definitely up there with Shaq. Its just that Shaq rarely gets any mention besides saying that 2000 was his prime. He was the MDE back than and arguably as good as any player was.
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Old 06-09-2006, 10:20 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombles
Probably since he got outplayed by The Dream, and got swept.


Don't want this to become the catalyst for the thread Hakeem vs Shaq redux but maybe it's b/c of youtube highlights, selected memories and/or passing on word of mouth that started as fact and has become mythical (this board is the guiltiest party) that people believe what Hakeem did to David a week earlier he also did to Shaq.

Didn't you agree that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in that series? I remember that surprised me, because I thought it was very arguable that the two were equals in that series.

I think the reason why Shaq's performances are never talked about was that the Lakers were so heavily favored to win those Finals. He put up special performances when even average ones would have won them the series comfortably. Magic's/Bird's/Jordan's performances came in the context of much more competitive series, which made them more memorable.
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Old 06-09-2006, 10:23 AM   #21
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Anyone care to explain more on what happened in these finals? Those don't look like MVP status player numbers...Was it a really low scoring finals? I guess if we're talking about worst MVPs, Chauncey Billups has a contender.

The scoring numbers are completely wrong!

You want the real line?

22.6 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 6.0 apg, 1.8 spg, 2.2 bpg

Makes perfect sense now, right?

Last edited by Psileas : 06-09-2006 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 06-09-2006, 10:29 AM   #22
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Oh, man, more lies from the same site:

Quote:
1987 -- Magic Johnson, L.A. Lakers
Averaged 21.8 points, 12.1 assists and 7.7 rebounds per game in the Lakersí 4-2 victory over the Boston Celtics

Uhh, make this actually 26.2/8.0/13.0...

Quote:
1992 Finals: 35.8 pts, 4.8 reb, 6.5 ast, 3.5 stls (52.6% FG)

Actually, it was 1.67 steals.
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Old 06-09-2006, 11:23 AM   #23
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are you sure about this? I mean, it's on the official site of the NBA. It's hard to believe that they'd put wrong numbers on there
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Old 06-09-2006, 01:52 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psileas


Actually, it was 1.67 steals.

Psileas, if you're getting Jordan's Finals stats from this site:


http://www.michaeljordansworld.com/stats_finals.htm


Be advised that many of their stats are incorrect (and the 3.5 vs. 1.67 steals number might be one such example, since they have 21 steals for the series, but then average that out to 1.7 spg, when 21/6 = 3.5, like the nba.com page says). Other examples include (but are not limited to):

-- Jordan did not shoot nearly 68% for the LA series (it was 55.8%)

-- he did not average 43 ppg against Phoenix (it was 41 ppg)

-- they have his rebound totals (and average) wrong for the '93 finals (it was 51 rebs for an 8.5 rpg average; cf. http://www.geocities.com/mjlove9293/...3/love9293.htm)

-- he did not shoot anywhere near 48.9% in the '96 Finals vs. Seattle (I think it was around 43-44%)

-- he shot 45.7% in the '97 Finals (not 42.7%; cf. bbr.com).


I just noticed these things earlier today. :) So I'm going to use that site sparingly from now on, since it doesn't seem to be as reliable as the other site I posted. Hopefully basketball-reference.com will get playoff box scores up from the early 90's soon. I had used their steals figure for the '92 Finals because I didn't have them on file (since I don't have the entire '92 Finals on DVD). The '93 figure I totalled myself from watching the series (yes, I was incredibly bored a couple of years ago during winter break :P). If you weren't using the "bad" site I posted above for the stats, then may I ask where you got steal and block totals for the playoffs/finals? Because bbr.com doesn't have them prior to '96, and I'd like to have a reliable site that has them. :)

Last edited by Loki : 06-09-2006 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 06-09-2006, 02:52 PM   #25
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I take the Finals' stats from this site, which, to the best of my knowledge, is accurate:

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/home.htm
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Old 06-09-2006, 03:01 PM   #26
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shaq took most credit for being the final mvp but if you think about it, he wouldn't get to the final without kobe brilliant performance against the power house in the west which shaq couldn't do much. the only reason why he's the final mvp because the east was weak with no big center to play him at the time.
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Old 06-09-2006, 03:27 PM   #27
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Wow, awesome site Psileas. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAMSTER
shaq took most credit for being the final mvp but if you think about it, he wouldn't get to the final without kobe brilliant performance against the power house in the west which shaq couldn't do much

Here are Shaq's averages in the WCF from 2000-2002:


2000 (vs. Portland): 25.9 pts, 12.4 reb, 4.3 ast, 1.9 blk (53.7% FG)

2001 (vs. SA): 27.0 pts, 13.0 reb, 2.5 ast, 1.3 blk (54.1% FG)

2002 (vs. Sac): 30.3 pts, 13.6 reb, 1.6 ast, 2.4 blk (53.1% FG)


Yeah, Shaq "couldn't do much." Shaq's numbers in every WCF series were better than Kobe's numbers. The only series where it's even arguable is 2001 against SA, which was the best series of Kobe's playoff career (33/7/7/51% FG). But keep in mind that Kobe was guarded alternately by 56 year old Terry Porter and 6'4" Antonio Daniels, while Shaq put up his monstrous numbers that series against two of the best defensive big men of all-time in Duncan and Robinson.

Stop with the revisionist history, please.
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Old 08-31-2006, 04:00 PM   #28
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hakeem DID outplay shaq in 95..but not as badly as he outplayed robinson in that season.

robinson was MVP and at the peak of his prime and yet only averaged 23 ppg to hakeem's 36 ppg. shaq averaged 28 ppg on his first trip to the finals and he outrebounded, outblocked, outassisted hakeem. hakeem played better on offense but the chokers like anderson shooting freesbies are what cost orlando that series.
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Old 08-31-2006, 04:27 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 420puffer
what were his #s when playing against detroit a few yrs ago n lost? I am rooting for Miami. I want him to win a ring w/ out Kobe


26.6 ppg - 10.9 rpg -.633%

but the only reason that his numbers were low (by diesel standards) was because kobe bryant was at his ballhoging best and never gave the ball to shaq.

game 1: shaq put 34-11 and and shot 13-of-16 and LA still lost because kobe shot the ball really bad.

game4: shaq put a gargantuan game 36-20 (shot 16-of-21) and LA still lost because kobe played horrible.
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Old 08-31-2006, 09:15 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpau02
Didn't you agree that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in that series? I remember that surprised me, because I thought it was very arguable that the two were equals in that series.

I think the reason why Shaq's performances are never talked about was that the Lakers were so heavily favored to win those Finals. He put up special performances when even average ones would have won them the series comfortably. Magic's/Bird's/Jordan's performances came in the context of much more competitive series, which made them more memorable.


thats incorrect.

2000:

game 2, lakers 111-104 pacers. 40 points/24 rebounds.

game 5, lakers 120-118 pacers. 36 points/21 rebounds.

game 6, lakers 116-111 pacers. 41 points/12 rebounds.


2001:

game 1, lakers 101-107 sixers. 44 points/20 rebounds and they still lost.

game 2, lakers 98-89 sixers. 28 points/20 rebounds/9 assists/8 blocks.

game 3, lakers 96-91 sixers. 30 points/12 rebounds/4 blocks.


2002:

game 1, lakers 99-94 nets. 36 points/16 rebounds/4 blocks.

game 3, lakers 106-103 nets. 35 points/11 rebounds/4 blocks.

game 4, lakers 113-107 nets. 34 points/10 rebounds/2 blocks.


all those games were close and the lakers needed shaq to have monster performances to win, he didnt just do it for pleasure and the lakers wouldnt of won with average performances by shaq as you said.

Last edited by lakers-city : 08-31-2006 at 09:17 PM.
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