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Old 03-07-2008, 01:42 AM   #31
gts
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Default Re: MVP Voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalMike
well done gts... i could not agree more. if people want to talk honest hoop, i agree that they are more than welcome and we should all be civil and respectful and not let ourselves get caught up in the trolling and aggressive behavior in the mosh pit also known as the main forum. lol



I have really been a pest to jeff lately in the main forums..i'm reporting trolls left and right...lol it's so bad in there between some of the kobeguys and lebron guys, then stir in the few random ones and it's just goofy...lol

we certainly have a nice thing going on in here lakers land...i been posting alot about the mvp award in the main forums and really have had some great debate with a couple really great cavs fans... then you go to the cavs forums and it's dead because there's really only like 3 or four real cavs fans on ish...

so i figured hey, statman posts in here as does qrich so why not a cavs fan too...lol
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Old 03-07-2008, 11:35 PM   #32
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Default Re: MVP Voting

interesting read... take it for what its worth

http://www.82games.com/wilq.htm
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Old 03-08-2008, 02:34 AM   #33
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Default Re: MVP Voting

The main forum is now almost unbearable. I visited three different times tonight. Each time, I found that the threads had descended farther and farther into a black hole of nothingness conversation.

Basically, 'my favorite player is god and yours sucks.' That is the argument going back-and-forth between these fools.

I will keep a close eye on this forum, as it seems there are an abundance of interesting, insightful conversations going on, here.

I'm starting to fear for ISH, though. It has gotten REALLY bad in the main forum. I don't know if it is due to the rise of the Lakers and Celtics? It seems that this season is way worse than it has been in seasons past. The only thing that I can find to correlate what has happened to the main forum is that a bunch of new, WORSE trolls than we have ever had on this site completely saturating what was, at one time, a respected forum.

They are mostly Laker and Celtic trolls, but there are some LeBron trolls, too (as we all know). The sheer numbers are what is frightening, though. It used to be that trolls were in the minority and laughed off of the site by the regulars.

Now, these losers take over EVERY thread and good posters who want to engage in civil, intellectual discussions are being cornered by these fools.

It is sad to see a once terrific site, rife with interesting discussions/threads being deduced to 20 pages devoted to 'why Kobe sucks' or 'LeBron does nothing but dominate the ball.'

I feel like we've really lost something, here. Why isn't Jeff doing a mass spring cleaning? I hate to say it, but I'm going to start looking for alternate NBA sites to discuss my beloved sport if this sh!t doesn't stop soon. It is intolerable and the moderators are doing nothing to control it.

Is anyone with me, here?
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Old 03-08-2008, 03:02 AM   #34
gts
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Default Re: MVP Voting

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Is anyone with me, here?
i've looked and there's really not alot out there... anything decent has zero activity going..i posted at one and it takes a day to get a response... at least on ISH you can have a decent conversation in an evening... i know any lakers forums are almost unbearabel because of the kobe love going on... we just gotta stay on it and keep reporting the trolls... maybe we need a petion for jeff..lol

anyways back to the MVP award talk...
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Old 03-08-2008, 03:18 AM   #35
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Default Re: MVP Voting

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Originally Posted by gts
interesting read... take it for what its worth

http://www.82games.com/wilq.htm
Interesting, but I have a general aversion to any formula that tries to determine the MVP. There are way too many things that can't be measured.

How many injuries to the MVP candidate's team? How has the MVP candidate performed in clutch situations? How many times has a candidate had to, single-handidly, drag his team to a win? (I think you know who I am talking about, here)

These formulas can't possibly measure such things. You have to actually watch the games to see these kinds of remarkable performances on extremely undermanned teams... which brings me to another problem I have with the MVP vote...

How many times have these voters actually seen the candidates play? When they are on national television? Maybe a few more times? Maybe a few less times?

To me, in order to evaluate a player, you need to go beyond the records or statistics and actually WATCH the players. That is how you determine who the best or most valuable players are.

I think there should be a panel of 10 voters (find 10 as unbiased as possible). Have the 'media' vote on the top 3. Then, the 10 respected voters have to watch all 82 games of a candidates team (including those in which he may have been injured).

That is the only way that we are going to get a true MVP. Since I don't see this happening, we will continue to have MVPs based, on large part, to team record and not much else... a terrible barometer for the true most valuable player, imo.

For the record, I am nominating myself as one of the final 10 who will watch all 82 games of each of the 3 nominees. I will be fair and balanced. :)
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Old 03-09-2008, 04:49 AM   #36
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Default Re: MVP Voting

Come on, gts (and other Laker fans). I was invited to this forum to talk some basketball. I wrote a well thought out post about the MVP talks (I have a hard time getting into serious Laker conversations, because I don't know THAT much about them) and I have been patiently waiting for a response.

Patience no more... Bring it...
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Old 03-09-2008, 05:19 AM   #37
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Default Re: MVP Voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Come on, gts (and other Laker fans). I was invited to this forum to talk some basketball. I wrote a well thought out post about the MVP talks (I have a hard time getting into serious Laker conversations, because I don't know THAT much about them) and I have been patiently waiting for a response.

Patience no more... Bring it...

I agree with you. Noone watches these games and they'll look at the record since the acquisition of a certain player (i.e. Garnett to Bos) or they'll look at winning percentage (Dirk on Dal last year). Its stupid.

The MVP award stands for most valuable PLAYER! it shouldn't be team effort and the only qualification should be that your record is above .500 and that the player is obviously dominating the most.

Now...being a Kobe fan I would tell you that I was extremely pissed a few years ago when he averaged 35 ppg and didn't win, and actually finished 3rd or 5th in voting. Right now Lebron is in the same situation and I would actually call LBJ the MVP of this season but because of the way the media portrays how an MVP should play, Kobe better win it otherwise they're out to get him and it would probably be too obvious to any retard as well.

Anyways bro im done venting, keep posting.
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Old 03-09-2008, 10:55 AM   #38
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Default Re: MVP Voting

I pm'd Jeff once, suggesting he give the mods banning powers and establish a consistent set of rules to keep the trolls in check, but he never responded. Iím at the point that I donít wish to come to this site anymore (other than the Lakers forum, of course), but thereís really nowhere else to discuss NBA ball around here.

If I had the money, I would get a VB license and start an NBA board WITH RULES and WITHOUT TROLLS. =(
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Old 03-09-2008, 11:17 AM   #39
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Default Re: MVP Voting

Welcome to the Laker forum, RedBlackAttack. Thanks for participating and I definitely hear you regarding the trolling that is going on in the mosh pit called the NBA forum. (i like that line.. haha) I have noticed it a lot as well, and I have reported bad behavior and even told Laker trolls to knock it off at times, but it does not do any good... people I guess are going to behave the way they want to, no matter what.

And as Sword said, if the mods don't have the power to deal with the problems, they are rendered ineffective. And Jeff clearly does not have the time to police every thread. I guess that is part of the price of having a free forum for us to play in. I agree with gts that the few other sites I have seen don't have the volume and quality of knowledgeable posters (aside from the trolls).

Personally, I think we have something special in the Laker forum with some really good people that all get along pretty well. I am glad to be a part of it and learn stuff day in and day out!

Oh yeah, what were we talking about? MVP voting... got it.

p.s. if you like, feel free to introduce yourself here: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...t=50990&page=9.



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Old 03-09-2008, 11:51 AM   #40
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Default Re: MVP Voting

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Originally Posted by SoCalMike
And as Sword said, if the mods don't have the power to deal with the problems, they are rendered ineffective. And Jeff clearly does not have the time to police every thread. I guess that is part of the price of having a free forum for us to play in. I agree with gts that the few other sites I have seen don't have the volume and quality of knowledgeable posters (aside from the trolls).
The forum being free isnít the problem. Iíve posted and have even modded at free forums that give the mods more purpose than just being site janitors, and guess what, it actually works. Sure, youíll still have your average troll show up here and there, but not nearly in the numbers this site has. And as soon as a poster proves themselves to be a troll, they are booted.

Quick question- do you guys have access to this sites modcp? Thatís a real help in terms of finding altersÖÖ
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Old 03-09-2008, 11:52 AM   #41
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Default Re: MVP Voting

The entire process feels completely arbitrary. The media seemingly annoints the MVP according to its whims.

Take the last 2 MVP's. Two years ago, Marc Stein was saying crap like "only X players in NBA history have ever gone 50/40/90" to support his Nash-for-MVP argument. The year after that, Dirk was chosen for the same reason (in addition to the flawed "best player on the best team" argument). It's a cute argument, but Jose Calderon is on pace for 50/40/90 this year, and no one is saying he should be MVP. The reason why? Because he's Jose freakin' Calderon! Basically, it looks like the writers in the media chose who they were voting for midseason, decided to stick with their votes no matter what, and tailored silly arguments in order to support their pre-determined voting decisions.

Really, the problem with the process is the word "valuable." Most of the confusion surrounding the MVP voting is a result of people not knowing how the hell to quantify what is/isn't "valuable" in their calculations. It's because of this confusion that people have to make stupid hypothetical-based considerations: "well, the Lakers would still be a 50-win team if Kobe were gone, but the Cavs wouldn't even be a 20-win team!" Really, who the hell knows how a team will do without its star? Gil Arenas was a top 5 MVP candidate last year, and his team's arguably doing better without him. I disagree with RedBlack in this sense: you can only go on what you see. The "take him off the team" argument shouldn't be a consideration.

I'm 90% sure Kobe will win it this year, based on the overwhelming support he's getting on ESPN. If he does, it will be an absolute joke. He's the same amazing player-- his team's just gotten better (and before anyone tries to argue that his hissy fit was what "inspired" Bynum et al. to become better...please don't. Credibility is easy to lose, but hard to earn). Can anyone really argue that his play this year has been any better than the previous two years', when he wasn't even in the top 5 in many voters' ballots? Same thing with Garnett: has he suddenly become a better player than the 20/14/4/2 (or better) beast of the past 5 seasons? He's arguably a worse player right now than the All-NBA 3rd teamer (!) he was last season.

IMO, the award should be changed to the MOP (most oustanding player). This award is an INDIVIDUAL accomplishment, given to a single player--team success should not have such a heavy bearing on who gets the award. I think there should be exceptions for those players who ONLY put up great stats because they're on horrible teams (e.g., the Shareef Abdur Raheems of the world), but that should be about as far as the consideration goes--no one in his right mind would ever believe Lebron wouldn't be putting up great stats if he were on the Spurs or Lakers, right?

Simply put, the system needs to be changed, and it should start with the name of the award itself. It's been more than 50 years since the award was first given, and people still can't seem to agree on the criteria, mostly due to the "valuable" element of the award.

Wow, I suck at writing. This was supposed to be a one-paragraph post.

Last edited by Frank Foley : 03-09-2008 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 03-09-2008, 12:03 PM   #42
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Default Re: MVP Voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
btw way guys..the main forums are such a troll haven right now i have asked a couple otherposters non lakers guys to feel free to post in the lakers forums and discuss the game and such... lets make sure we let them speak their minds and give them the respect we'd expect ourselves...

Great idea. Let's just hope certain posters don't follow them here. I don't have enough money to replace the stuff I would break if KINGD were to make one of his trademark "Kobe>>>>Jordan and Magic put together" posts in here. Or PleezeBelieve and his logic-defying, Lebron-hyping forum diarrhea. This place is my asylum from the maniac trolls in the main forum.

Actually, if this place were to ever get as infested as the main forum, I would stop visiting/posting on ISH altogether.
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Old 03-09-2008, 12:08 PM   #43
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Default Re: MVP Voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tainted Sword
The forum being free isnít the problem. Iíve posted and have even modded at free forums that give the mods more purpose than just being site janitors, and guess what, it actually works. Sure, youíll still have your average troll show up here and there, but not nearly in the numbers this site has. And as soon as a poster proves themselves to be a troll, they are booted.

Quick question- do you guys have access to this sites modcp? Thatís a real help in terms of finding altersÖÖ

sorry to hijack the mvp thread a little...

sword, you are right... i guess i meant "free" in that anyone can join and they dont have to worry about paying. i am sure if it was a pay-for site, that there would be hardly any trolls... also, having sufficient power to deal with the problem would also help in a huge way, so i agree. and no, we do not have access to modcp as far as i know. but i am a newbie in that area so perhaps a pm to hotsizzle or lakerfreak would be more appropriate if you are curious.


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Old 03-09-2008, 01:22 PM   #44
gts
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Default Re: MVP Voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Interesting, but I have a general aversion to any formula that tries to determine the MVP. There are way too many things that can't be measured.

How many injuries to the MVP candidate's team? How has the MVP candidate performed in clutch situations? How many times has a candidate had to, single-handidly, drag his team to a win? (I think you know who I am talking about, here)

These formulas can't possibly measure such things. You have to actually watch the games to see these kinds of remarkable performances on extremely undermanned teams... which brings me to another problem I have with the MVP vote...

How many times have these voters actually seen the candidates play? When they are on national television? Maybe a few more times? Maybe a few less times?

To me, in order to evaluate a player, you need to go beyond the records or statistics and actually WATCH the players. That is how you determine who the best or most valuable players are.

I think there should be a panel of 10 voters (find 10 as unbiased as possible). Have the 'media' vote on the top 3. Then, the 10 respected voters have to watch all 82 games of a candidates team (including those in which he may have been injured).

That is the only way that we are going to get a true MVP. Since I don't see this happening, we will continue to have MVPs based, on large part, to team record and not much else... a terrible barometer for the true most valuable player, imo.

For the record, I am nominating myself as one of the final 10 who will watch all 82 games of each of the 3 nominees. I will be fair and balanced. :)
well there has to be some sort of number on wins...
you can't have the MVP award being awared to a guy on a sub .500 team..
it's just not right and i can guarantee that if wins and losses wasn't taken into account for the final vote that i could find a player on a team with a sub.500 team and make an argument as why he is the true MVP of the league...

that's why it has to be an award that includes stats, overall record and games played too...

that would actually be a fun exercise find a guy whose team is below .500 and make an argument as to why he is the MVP
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Old 03-09-2008, 02:11 PM   #45
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Default Re: MVP Voting

It's always the best player of the top three teams. Why should it change, then it would be double standard.
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