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Old 08-11-2006, 10:30 PM   #46
Voice of Reason
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Originally Posted by JacobTheButcher
You can interpret it as cockiness if you want. But some people may see it as just unflappable confidence. All good WR's are cocky/selfish in some way. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, you should have to be selfish in order to be a good receiver in the NFL. You gotta WANT the ball. If you don't, the DB will beat you for it everytime. You don't think Marvin Harrison has ever been pissed at Peyton Manning for not gettin him the ball? All WR's want the ball. Some guys just express themselves differently..

As for trash talking.. Chad Johnson and Steve Smith do it in a friendly, competitive way. Nobody ever takes Chad Johnson seriously. People get a kick out of the shyt he pulls (sending Cleveland DB's Peptol Bismol because they were gonna get "sick" of covering him, c'mon.. who takes that as a serious jab?). TO, on the other hand, just seems to rub people the wrong way. You'll see Chad at the Pro-Bowl kickin it with the other guys, and TO would usually be the guy sitting by himself.

There is a thin line when dealing with confidence and cockyness.

And whether its friendly trash talkin or negative trash talkin. Its trash talkin no?

Like i said this has nothing to do with Steve Smith the WR who is phenominal. Not a slight, not discrediting him or anything. I have him ranked #2 behind TO. And i'm willing due to last season by TO to allow Steve to be argued the top WR in the game.
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Old 08-12-2006, 07:20 PM   #47
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I think a lot of you are ranking Randy a lot lower then he actually is. He is the #1 talent when talking about wideouts in football, yet it seems we only truly see the player Randy could be five or six times a year. That in no way makes him #1 overall, but he is that talented. Probably the most physically talented wideout to ever play in my opinion. That means very little if he can't put it all together, but I believe in him & what he can do.

The only knock on Randy is his inability to run across the middle, but I believe that's more by design than his courage because lets face it, as a offensive co. you don't want to see your best offensive weapon go down for the year on a simple crossing route when he can be just as effective running deep outs, comebacks, corners, flares, etc. It's not worth the risk.

Anyways, if I had to pick one & only one wideout for this year it would be Randy Moss. Ask around the league who the most feared wideout is ( and lets face it, the opinions of the defensive co. hold a lot more weight than a simple fan does) and I bet Randy is mentioned at #1 more than any other wideout.

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Moss could return but he has to prove himself a bit.

Prove himself of what? That he can stay healthy? Because that's all that is stopping him from putting up numbers like the Randy of Minnesota. I've watched him a lot in his time with Minny & now Oakland & he hasn't lost a noticable amount of verticle, speed or quickness. He's only 29 I believe, prime years. The best is still to come from Randy, believe it or not.
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Old 08-12-2006, 07:39 PM   #48
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[quote=Carbine]

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The only knock on Randy is his inability to run across the middle

No its not his only knock. The biggest knock is his route running. Its sloppy, half assed because he is dependant on sweeping his poor route running for going long. Thinkin who cares i ran 2 sloppy routes, next play is down the field and I can get a big gain if not 6. He doesnt go all out and he doesnt feel he has too because he is a home run hitter. Strikes out alot but can give you 40-45 dingers so all is well. Thats Randy Moss. His comments about playing when he wants blah blah blah, his antics of leaving games early, his gestures and comments in the media are also turnoffs. Thats a bigger knock then Randy not going across the middle.

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Anyways, if I had to pick one & only one wideout for this year it would be Randy Moss. Ask around the league who the most feared wideout is ( and lets face it, the opinions of the defensive co. hold a lot more weight than a simple fan does) and I bet Randy is mentioned at #1 more than any other wideout.

Unless you have support to back this up I dont buy it. Steve Smith is heavily regarded. All last season he has been the talk of the town. Darren Woodson said he was the leagues MVP. Former Cowboys Safety. Sure its "words" but the fact remains you can find more articles on Steve Smith being the top dawg, being dangerous more than Randy Moss. A simple google.com backs this up. Heck who knows what is being said on espn.com, might go look and see Steve Smith praised more then Moss.

With TO, Smith, Johnson? And Randy 2 lackluster seasons, I'd like to see you find some guys saying Randy is the most feared WR.


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Prove himself of what? That he can stay healthy? Because that's all that is stopping him from putting up numbers like the Randy of Minnesota. I've watched him a lot in his time with Minny & now Oakland & he hasn't lost a noticable amount of verticle, speed or quickness. He's only 29 I believe, prime years. The best is still to come from Randy, believe it or not.

He's lost an extra gear from Randy in Minny with Randy in Oakland. Could that be due to injury? Maybe. Bulkking up? Maybe...so we shall see if he still has the speed, quickness. IE he has to PROVE that all over thanks to his last 2yrs.

How will Moss bounce back/respond this year? Or will people run to the QB excuse again. When players have down years to thier normal standards there is doubt and thus proving the doubters wrong exist. Hence he has to prove himself again as the leagues best WR because right now? TO, Smith, Johnson, Holt are those dudes with Marvin being Marvin. Moss was once the standout guy. He is not anymore. Talent aint much when guys in the league are also talented & are producing.

I dont see how Moss is any more dangerous than Steve Smith who had no other recieving threats on his team as he literally by himself tore up NYG and Chicago defenses. Embarrassed them. He can take a small hitch and turn it into positive gain. Can go across the middle in traffic. Can go deep. He can do it all. I'm just not sure how good of a blocker he is but catching? He has it. He cant outmuscle and intimidate DB's like a Moss. Thats not a slight but its finding things he is incapable of doing just for the sake of doing so.

Moss is ranked where he should be. Wants to move up? Prove it on the field.
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Old 08-12-2006, 07:43 PM   #49
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With TO, Smith, Johnson? And Randy 2 lackluster seasons, I'd like to see you find some guys saying Randy is the most feared WR.

Checkmate, thank you!!
Moss is #1 in terms of talent...but he did have two lucklaster seasons.

Oh, Peppers just had his 1st sack on the first possession and Keyshawn just made his first catch as a Panther...

I can't wait till the 10th...!!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-12-2006, 10:52 PM   #50
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That's what I meant when I implied we only see the real Randy for five or six games a year. He's always had the talent to be the stand-out at his position, and he was & in my opinion still can be that dude when he feels like it.

When he knows the ball isn't comming to him he runs sloppy routes, that is not something that comes as a surprise to me watching Randy as long as I have. However, to say he is incapable of running a great route is flat out wrong. Maybe that's not what you're saying.

When Moss wants to run a great route he can, but that's part of the thing with Moss... he does what Randy wants, when he wants to do it. It's not the attitude you want, but he's the most talented receiver ever, I'm not gonna say what he should & shouldn't do. That brings up the whole crowd around him discussion & how important those people are compared to the "yes men" Randy has had.

As for Steve Smith, he's a great wideout. I don't have any problem with people rating him top three because they have a legit case. He's a gamer, but at the end of the day if I had to choose one receiver for this season coming up I'm picking Moss. Randy needs a good kick in the ass & he might look at his stat sheet & see under 1100+ yards in the last two & decide it's time.

A motivated Randy Moss is the #1 wideout. However, we haven't seen a motivated Moss since his early days with Minny because he was the new guy, he HAD to prove what he is capable of.

Steve Smith had a great year, he proved that he belongs with the elite. Does he have the determination of an MJ to keep improving his game? Maybe. I know Randy didn't for whatever reasons & you can get away with it when you're a talent like Moss.

I view Randy like Tmac, can be the best player in the league (In Moss' case, WR - Peyton got #1 player on lock ) when everything is going for him because he's that talented. However when injuries, lack of motivation come into play he's just another great wideout, not the standout.
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Old 08-13-2006, 01:16 AM   #51
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I would NEVER pick Moss over Smith, because of what you just said...he plays whenever he wants to (puts himself over the team), Smith ALWAYS comes to play...and personally, I actually think Smith is just as good of a playmaker.

Smith's a better YAC receiver, Moss is a better deep threat...I don't think you can dispute that Smith is top 3, people just were shocked to see him explode last season because he was injured all 2004 season...and had Moose on his team previous years.

If you had a draft, everyone should pick Smith 1st overall as a WR...Owens has attitude issues, Moss just does what he wants...Chad is a cool cat, I simply prefer Smith. But Chad might have problems in the locker room with his big mouth...but Smith and Chad are my two favorite wide-outs in the game.


You guys consider Keyshawn a top 15 receiver? He looked good tonight for Carolina...looked alot like Chad Johnson.
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Old 08-13-2006, 01:56 AM   #52
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But Chad might have problems in the locker room with his big mouth...but Smith and Chad are my two favorite wide-outs in the game.

See, that's a misconception you drew up yourself because you see that Chad Johnson is a loud, expressive, charismatic player on the field and you automatically think he's a bigmouth/locker-room cancer behind the scenes. Chad has never had ANY beefs with his teammates. he is not a locker room problem. Certainly not any more so than Steve Smith, who also tends to run his mouth..

Why do people think that just because you play the WR position and actually have a personality, that you must be another TO?
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Old 08-13-2006, 02:34 AM   #53
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I'm sure he had run-ins with teammates in the past, I heard something about that 2 years ago actually...when Bengals were losing.

I remember him trashing his QB for not throwing him the ball enough...since when has Smith done anything like that?

Because the guy has fun on the field, he has personality? His celebrates when he scores...Chad Johnson is a known loud mouth, who thinks he's the greatest and I definitely recall him having problems in the locker room prior to last season.

Not a misconception.

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ertainly not any more so than Steve Smith, who also tends to run his mouth..

Run his mouth towards who? Show me an article? Chad runs his mouth in almost every intreview, shows off that cockyness...Smith doesn't...I dont recall Smith ever causing problems in the locker room...I recall Chad doing so, back in 2004...only thing I remember is Smith arguing with his offensive coach because they weren't throwing him the ball enough, when he had close to 100 yards in the first half...and the running game wasn't working, I think it was against the Bears in the 3-13 loss last season.

Smith and Chad are very similar on the field, they are great players who like to show-boat when they make a big play...but Smith doesn't run his mouth off the field, and hasn't caused any problems thus far that I know of...Chad has, and please don't make me find an article...because I remember him doing so in 2004 or 2003 season.
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Old 08-13-2006, 02:36 AM   #54
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Disregarding all that, I would still take Smith over Chad...because I think he's more of a threat...Chad is more of a possession receiver.

Remeber, Smith has more yards, catches and TD's...while playing really only 15 games last season...he got ejected in the 1st quarter in a game because he "touched" an official.
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Old 08-13-2006, 09:38 AM   #55
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Chad is not more of a possession receiver.

Steve Smiths' YPC is 14.4 I believe while Chads' is around 14.7.
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Old 08-13-2006, 11:30 AM   #56
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Key is not top 15. And Chad is far from a possession WR. What on earth makes u say that?
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Old 08-13-2006, 07:07 PM   #57
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YPC doesn't make you a playmaking threat...that just means he could also be a deep threat, he's a possession receiver because he's not a great YAC receiver...he has amazing hands and usually gets tackled right away. Just because he's a possession receiver doesn't mean he isnt a good playmaker, he's just "more" of a possession receiver. Moss is somewhat of a possession receiver as well, he's a deep threat...Owens is a playmaking receiver, that's just how I view them.

Smith's YPC is 14.1 because he probably caught like 40 passes at the line of scrimmage and made something out of nothing...I'm not saying Chad isn't a playmaker he's just more of a possession receiver...same thing that Keyshawn is, a possession receiver...you know, a receiver that has great hands...makes big plays on 3rd down...makes those difficult plays, Chad goes deep ALOT of time...but he can't make something out of nothing like Smith or Owens.

I think Keyshawn is a top 15, he's been so highly disregarded...I was so happy when I heard Panthers inked him, he looks ALL business....in fact if you watch Carolina play last night you would see how dominant they were "starter vs starter". He's arguably the best blocking receiver in the game, and one of the best hands in the business.


1st quarter when all Panther starters were playing...they allowed 21 totaly yards, 12 of them rushing...they sacked Bills QB, put tons of pressure on him every down...didn't allow a single 1st down that quarter...and Lucas INT'ed a pass for TD.

Jake Delhomme played only one drive....went 5 for 6, hit Keyshawn twice...Colbert twice...and made a TD pass. After the TD you can see they were all business...Jake didn't celebrate, just put his hand up to god...Keyshawn after every pass just looked very confidant. This team is all business....Peppers sacked the QB on 3rd down, got back up and went straight to the bench to sit down like it was nothing...Lucas made the INT, no real celebration...just threw the ball in the end zone and went to the bench.

Best part Foster and especially DeAngelo looked real good...Williams didn't have much to work with but showed his vision/speed on one 20 yard run....Steve Smith didn't play, but damn this team is looking good....especially their defense...they have a chance to be top 3 in both defense and offense this season I believe. Is there a more well rounded team in this game?
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Old 08-13-2006, 07:31 PM   #58
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By the way, Steve Smith had a 15.2 YPC rating not 14.2

That doesn't tell the story though...to me there is a possession, deep threat and a playmaker.

Randy Moss= Deep Threat
Chad Johnson= Possession & Deep Threat
Steve Smith and Terrell Owens= Playmakers (Great YAC receivers)
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Old 08-13-2006, 07:42 PM   #59
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By the way, Steve Smith had a 15.2 YPC rating not 14.2

It was actually 14.4, like I said before. I went by career averages, because one-year averages aren't a true evaluation on someone.

Your view on what a possession receiver, deep threat & that stuff is interesting but at the end of the day Chad is a playmaker, deep threat & a possession receiver, he's that good. If you want the definition of a possession receiver go back to Marty Booker in Chicago. Chad is not anywhere near that - not that it's a bad thing. I think Marty had 100 grabs for 1000 yards - 10 yards per.
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Old 08-13-2006, 07:55 PM   #60
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Career averages doesn't tell the whole story either, Carolina didn't have talented Qb's like Delhomme in the past...Chris Weinke? Rodney Peete? They couldn't exactly make the big throws down the field...you got to look at the QB's as well, definitely tied in.

I love Chad, but I haven't seen him make a 5 yard catch and create something out of nothing like Owens/Smith...have you?

I mean you're telling me because Chad has a very impressive YPC that makes him a playmaker? You consider catching a hail mary because of your speed, hands and size a playmaker? I don't.

PLAY MAKER...a player that can create something out of nothing...deep threat is totally different to me...Chad is fast, has great hands and good size that he can beat most corners down the field...he's also a possession receiver, I think EVERY receiver has all three qualities really....they are all professional football players...I just think Chads best quality is his hands, and I see him more of a possession receiver then anything else.

Smith is a PUNT RETURNER for Carolina...usually playmakers are given that job, and that's exactly what Smith is...he's also a GREAT deep threat and is a decent possession receiver...but his greatest asset is his play making skills, that's why he's a play maker.

Look at hockey, take a look at an "enforcer"...it's a guy that protects your superstars, and makes the big hits? Does that mean he doesn't score goals?
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