Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Draft Forum

NBA Draft Forum NBA Draft message board - nba draft forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-27-2008, 09:50 PM   #1
VCMVP1551
NBA sixth man of the year
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Charlie Villanuevas Eyebrows
Posts: 6,971
Default Pre-Draft Workouts

As all of the regular posters know I've always been very interested in the players heights, wingspans ect. but I wanted to know out of all the tests and measurements they do which do you think are the most imporant?

For example at the time of the 1999 draft there were rumors about Elton Brand being 6'5" or 6'6" but not only did he measure a legit 6'8" but also had a 7'5" wingspan which allows him to play bigger than his 6'8" height.

Here are some old evalutions of Brand from around the 1998 draft

Quote:
Initial concerns about his height were erased when he measured just over 6-8 without his sneakers. His arm span is huge; he's got a vertical reach of over nine feet, and his horizontal span is 7-51/2. At 260 pounds, he can play defense with the best of them, but he's got soft hands, too.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...0/bulls_brand/

Quote:
There were many rumors swirling around the recent National Basketball Association draft and who would be its No. 1 pick. One of them concerned Elton Brand's height.

He was really 6 foot 5 1/2, not 6 foot 8, one said, smallish for a player projected as a power forward in the pros. So perhaps it was a tape measure that gave Brand the top pick.

''Teams made a big deal about it,'' Brand said. ''When it was my turn to get measured, it was like, 'O.K., it's Brand, shoes off, socks off, head straight' because there were so many rumors.''

Brand is so wide bodied and muscular that he looks shorter. But the tape measure said 6 foot 8. It translated to No. 1.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE5DA173CF932A25754C0A96F9582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2

Quote:
BULLS: Chicago may have moved a step closer to taking Elton Brand with the No. 1 pick of the draft after Brand measured 6-foot-8 1/4 in bare feet at the Chicago draft camp last week. With a 7-foot-5 horizontal reach and a vertical reach of more than 9 feet, Brand ranked with the 7-footers.

Quote:
ELTON BRAND, Duke, 6-8, 275. Scouts breathed a sigh of relief when he measured a legit 6-8 (6-9 1/2 with shoes on) at draft camp.

See what really interested me about Brand was despite playing so well in college if he measures an inch or 2 shorter he probably falls from number 1 to number 10. Brand however has been one of the best big men in the NBA since he entered the NBA averaging over 20 points, 10 rebounds and 2 assists but my question is how much does that extra inch or 2 really help Brand or is it his wingspan that allows him to play so big? Is it Brand's strong frame?

While Brand got picked number 1 Ben Wallace wasn't as fortunate 3 years earlier after he measured 6'7". He went undrafted but eventually won 4 defensive player of the year awards, led the NBA in blocks and rebounds plus he won a championship. Many people however believe just being 6'7" is why teams didn't draft him considering he is a PF/C.

Quote:
Ever wonder how teams missed Ben Wallace? I did. From what I can tell it was fairly simple. Wallace measured at 6'7 in pre-draft workouts. Teams looked at that and thought, "That's small forward size?" When you look at Wallace as a small forward you see a good defender who might lack quickness and definitely lacks the ability to shoot from outside of 8 feet. Of course in reality Wallace didn't have small forward size. People don't block shots or shoot with the top of their head, they do it with their hands, usually while jumping. Wallace's long arms and great leaping ability allowed him to play like he's 6'10, not ideal size for a center, but definitely reasonable. Four Defensive Player of the Year awards later teams have realized that it is more important how tall someone plays than how tall they measure.

http://www.82games.com/trueheight.htm

Is it his wingspan, athletisism and strength that allows him to block shots, defend seven footers? If so then why weren't any scouts smart enough to look at that. Sometimes there are players who are just freaks of nature in every area and leave no doubts like Shaq.

Quote:
The reason Shaq's so hard on basketball hardware is that he's not your average college center. At 7-foot-1 and nearly 300 pounds, ... Shaq already has a reach of 9-5 and an armspan of 7-7. He's a good leaper, too, and can touch a point on the backboard almost two-and-a-half feet above the rim.

Quote:
To no one's surprise, the Orlando Magic took the 7-foot-1, 303-pound O'Neal with the first pick of tonight's NBA draft.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...es/92draft.htm

Obviously Shaq measuring 7'1" barefoot, with the 36 inch vertical and long 7'7" wingspan erased any doubt he'd be the number 1 pick but because many people test their vertical lower or come out much shorter than expected say Shaq measures 6'11" with a 30 inch vertical instead. Is he still the number 1 pick or do teams worry that the college dominance won't translate into NBA dominance?

Even a legend like Red Auerbach questioned Alonzo Mourning's ability to play center in the NBA.

Quote:
But can Mourning, who weighs 249 pounds and measures 6-9-1/2, hold up as an NBA center? Auerbach isn`t positive of that yet.

Of course Mourning ended up having a hall of fame career aswell.

I also wanted to talk about those athletisism tests and in particular Kevin Durant's results from last years camp.

Quote:
According to the Times, Durant was the only prospect at camp who failed to bench press 185 pounds, and finished behind Oden in some key drills, including the vertical leap, agility drill and three-quarter court sprint.


Oden jumped 34 inches in the vertical leap while Durant jumped 33 inches, completed the agility drill in 11.67 seconds to Durant's 12.33 seconds, and finished the three-quarter court sprint in 3.27 seconds, ahead of Durant's 3.45 seconds, according to the report.

Durant, however, had a 7-4 wingspan, which ranked second among all prospects and measured a half-inch wider than Oden's wingspan.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2...ory?id=2894925

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-...raft=100&sort=

Durant's strength had proved to be a problem earlier in the year when he had trouble finishing with contact but he has appeared far more athletic than those tests would suggest. His athletisism seems above average for a swingman and you will see him throw down very athletic dunks on a regular basis and the tests were so much lower than expected that many scouts feel he didn't do the tests properly. A lot of people however said he was going to be a bust based on those vertical and agility tests plus him not benching 185 pounds. Durant however has been a 20 point scorer this year and by far the favorite to win rookie of the year. Durant isn't the only athletic player to test lower than expected either.

Monta Ellis didn't test as well as Oden in the 3/4 court sprint or the lane agility test which seems crazy when you think about it. Ellis also had a max vert of 31 inches at the combine and Ike Diogu did better than him in the lane agility test.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-...raft=100&sort=

Obviously Ellis is quicker and more athletic than that.

In 2006 Brandon Roy had 40.5" vertical while Andre Iguodala had just a 34.5" vertical. Something is not right there.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-...raft=100&sort=
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-...raft=100&sort=

Watch any game and Andre is clearly more athletic.

So should any stock really be put into the vertical and speed/agility tests and is height a good way to evaluate big men or is wingspan/strength and athletisism a better way?

Kevin Love has claimed to be under 6'10" even with shoes and do you think that's why he may not be a lottery pick or do you think it has more to do with conditioning or is it lack of athletisism?

Quote:
ROOM TO GROW U.C.L.A.’s Kevin Love knows he is not fooling anyone with his listed height of 6 feet 10 inches.

Love, the 271-pound freshman sensation, insists he has always claimed to be 6-9. But with his shoes off, he has been measured at 6-8 . With shoes on, he is 6-9 .

“The whole height thing is really overrated,” he said. “When it comes down to it, can you play or can you not play? I think I play like I’m 7 feet.”

Now 19, Love said doctors told him he would continue growing until he is 21.

“Sometime, I could really be 6-10,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/17/sp...n%20University

What players do you think scouts will really emphasize these tests with?

Last edited by VCMVP1551 : 03-28-2008 at 03:40 PM.
VCMVP1551 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2008, 10:12 PM   #2
daballa13
Great young streetballer
 
daballa13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 596
Default Re: Pre-Draft Workouts

Im with you bro, how the heck does Roy get a higher Vertical then Iggy. That's totally wrong, some of this info just isn't right, and for Greg Oden to have a 34 inch Vertical is astonishing. I still don't beleive that he has a 34 inch Vert.
daballa13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2008, 10:32 PM   #3
VCMVP1551
NBA sixth man of the year
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Charlie Villanuevas Eyebrows
Posts: 6,971
Default Re: Pre-Draft Workouts

Quote:
Originally Posted by daballa13
Im with you bro, how the heck does Roy get a higher Vertical then Iggy. That's totally wrong, some of this info just isn't right, and for Greg Oden to have a 34 inch Vertical is astonishing. I still don't beleive that he has a 34 inch Vert.

Iggy probably just did the tests wrong. Shaq had a 35 inch vertical in his prime and he measured 2 inches taller and a rookie Shaq weighed 46 pounds more than a rookie Greg Oden at the pre-draft camps so Oden could have a 34 inch vert. Iggy's max vert has to be atleast 40 inches.
VCMVP1551 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2008, 01:33 AM   #4
IlliniFan
Very good NBA starter
 
IlliniFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: NOVA
Posts: 8,073
Default Re: Pre-Draft Workouts

That was a good read. Very informative.
IlliniFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2008, 01:42 AM   #5
CaptainOwlClub
Great young streetballer
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 575
Default Re: Pre-Draft Workouts

its about how they test the vertical- it is a 2 foot jump

some people are 1 foot and some people are 2 foot jumpers

you will test better if you are a better jumper off 2 feet

aigudala is a good example of a 1 foot jumper as roy is a good example of a 2 foot jumper - drJ/david thompson jamariomoon/dwight howard josh smith/vince carter

when you allow the running start and jumping off 1 foot good jumpers get crazy numbers- high40's and 50's

i think love will go back to ucla come back cut up and be a top 3 pick next year
CaptainOwlClub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2008, 01:56 AM   #6
VCMVP1551
NBA sixth man of the year
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Charlie Villanuevas Eyebrows
Posts: 6,971
Default Re: Pre-Draft Workouts

Quote:
Originally Posted by IlliniFan
That was a good read. Very informative.

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainOwlClub
its about how they test the vertical- it is a 2 foot jump

some people are 1 foot and some people are 2 foot jumpers

you will test better if you are a better jumper off 2 feet

aigudala is a good example of a 1 foot jumper as roy is a good example of a 2 foot jumper - drJ/david thompson jamariomoon/dwight howard josh smith/vince carter

when you allow the running start and jumping off 1 foot good jumpers get crazy numbers- high40's and 50's

Thanks for in the information. BTW Vince had a 43" max vert and 36" standing vert at the 98' pre-draft camp. His draft stock went way up after the workouts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainOwlClub
i think love will go back to ucla come back cut up and be a top 3 pick next year

That would be a great idea for Love. I think big men should always stay 2-3 years in college but especially Love because he doesn't have great height or athletisism so all the footwork and moves he can learn to get his shot off the better. He already has a great basketball IQ but with another year or 2 of college he could become one of the smartest players in the NBA.

My concern about Love is his weight for his age because he seems like he could become a 300 pound player which wouldn't be good for a player his size who isn't that athletic especially with his back problems. If he works hard on conditioning he could be a great player in the NBA though.
VCMVP1551 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2008, 07:57 AM   #7
Da KO King
NBA sixth man of the year
 
Da KO King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: twitter.com/RandomHoopsMike
Posts: 7,544
Default Re: Pre-Draft Workouts

Kevin Love will definitely be scrutinized in pre-draft workouts. Scouts will take a key interest in his arm length measurement (more important than wingspan) and body fat percentage.

As for the Ben Wallace thing.....

Wallace went undrafted not because of his height but because he has/had not a single reliably skill to count on at the NBA level. His entire game then (and now) is based around his athleticism and effort. Players like that never get drafted when they are 6'7" PF/C hybrids.

Last edited by Da KO King : 03-29-2008 at 07:59 AM.
Da KO King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2008, 05:41 PM   #8
VCMVP1551
NBA sixth man of the year
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Charlie Villanuevas Eyebrows
Posts: 6,971
Default Re: Pre-Draft Workouts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da KO King
Kevin Love will definitely be scrutinized in pre-draft workouts. Scouts will take a key interest in his arm length measurement (more important than wingspan) and body fat percentage.

It's funny because I think regardless what scouts think of his skills a big part of if he gets drafted in the lottery will be how he measures in height/length/weight and body fat%. Some team could really steal him if he drops out of the lottery but I think whenever a player already has questions about their weight and they are undersized for the position they play and not very athletic there is a legit cause for concern.

As for the Ben Wallace thing.....

Quote:
Wallace went undrafted not because of his height but because he has/had not a single reliably skill to count on at the NBA level. His entire game then (and now) is based around his athleticism and effort. Players like that never get drafted when they are 6'7" PF/C hybrids.

Yeah but it seems like those types of players usually make great additions to NBA teams for example Chuck Hayes and Jason Maxiell who are both closer to 6'5" actually have become very valuable players.
VCMVP1551 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2008, 05:10 AM   #9
Fallguy20
Suck-A-Fish
 
Fallguy20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: bangin' in your boombox
Posts: 3,993
Default Re: Pre-Draft Workouts

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainOwlClub
i think love will go back to ucla come back cut up and be a top 3 pick next year

but if they win the championship this year it would be smart for him to leave now. dont get me wrong, im always pulling for duke, but ucla has a decent chance of winning this year despite Hansbrough and the heels. say ucla does win, what would he have to gain from coming back for another year? what could he possibly loose? you dont want to become another Bill Walker by your own hand...
Fallguy20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2008, 08:15 AM   #10
VCMVP1551
NBA sixth man of the year
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Charlie Villanuevas Eyebrows
Posts: 6,971
Default Re: Pre-Draft Workouts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallguy20
but if they win the championship this year it would be smart for him to leave now. dont get me wrong, im always pulling for duke, but ucla has a decent chance of winning this year despite Hansbrough and the heels. say ucla does win, what would he have to gain from coming back for another year? what could he possibly loose? you dont want to become another Bill Walker by your own hand...

Even though his stock would be better I just hope he stays another year gets in better shape and develops his skills even more.
VCMVP1551 is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:57 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy