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Old 06-10-2006, 07:20 PM   #16
Pistol Pete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkvli
wasnt it I who mentioned it first? magzz and mo. do it colangelo!

We are overpaying badly for Mo Williams and Jamaal Magloire if we deal Morris Peterson and Charlie Villaneuva. It simply isn't worth it to trade for those two players, especially when Magloire may come when he becomes a free agent. There is too much risk, of letting go of a potential star in Villaneuva and an ironman and our only constant at the off guard position in Peterson, and not nearly enough reward, gaining a solid point guard in Williams and an average starter in Magloire.

You have to realize how much value Villaneuva and Peterson have, a combination of those two can get more then Maurice Williams and Jamaal Magloire. Even if they cannot, then I just don't think you make the trade, especially when you can draft someone like LaMarcus Aldridge in the draft at #3 after acquiring Brevin Knight, or you could draft Andrea Bargnani at #3 after acquiring Brevin Knight if those rumours are indeed plausible.

The Raptors have too many options to settle on a deal that we do not clearly come out with the obvious advantage. Bryan Colangelo will use that, and will make a great trade, if he indeed finds one, if not then he will make a great pick. I have no doubts.
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Old 06-10-2006, 07:22 PM   #17
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we need a pg and a center. our dire needs. its a dumb trade if we trade both mo and villanueva, but either one with some other incentives (picks, a player) i would not mind.
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Old 06-10-2006, 07:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkvli
we need a pg and a center. our dire needs. its a dumb trade if we trade both mo and villanueva, but either one with some other incentives (picks, a player) i would not mind.

If we only trade one then it's something that you seriously may have to look at, but I believe that a trade of both is being discussed, and that's something where we greatly overpay, something that I do not want to see happen when nearly every decision we make this offseason is maginified and crucial.
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Old 06-10-2006, 08:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pistol Pete
You have to realize how much value Villaneuva and Peterson have
No, you have to realize how much value Williams and Magloire have.

Mo Williams is a Jason Terry style player who's only 22 years old, and is already 80% of the player Terry is, at a steal of a contract. He's only an average passer for a point guard, but he's an elite passer as a 2-guard, and he's a terrific clutch scorer. If we didn't have Redd, Mo would have been our #1 option this year.

The problem with Mo is that he wants to be a starting point guard, and we simply can't offer that to him with TJ around. One of the two has to go, and it seems like that guy will be Mo. However, if we choose to trade TJ and make Mo our longterm starter, that would be ok too.

Jamaal Magloire is an above average center in a league where at least five teams have no center. He can grab 10 rebounds in his sleep if you give him 30 minutes, and he's a fairly reliable post scorer once he manages to catch the ball (bad hands).

Point guard and center are the two most sought after and valuable positions in the league. You simply don't win ball games without them.

Many Raptors fans think that now that Colangelo is in town, they will play Phoenix style ball, and build a winning team around 3 guys who play the same position (Bosh, Villanueva, and either Aldridge or Bargnani). The flaw with this theory is that you don't have Nash. Point guard is the most important position in a run and gun system, and I can't even imagine choosing a system that's built around a player you don't have.

And back to Mo Pete and Charlie - Average 2 guards and Glen Robinson style pf's aren't the most valuable pieces the league has ever seen.
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Old 06-10-2006, 08:42 PM   #20
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PS - Not that it matters how I value the players, but personally I would be willing to structure the deal around Charlie and a different player besides Mo Pete, if I were the Bucks' GM.

I'd rather not trade for CV at all, since I want a tough defensive PF, but the Bucks' GM has been very clear that he wants a jump shooting, floor-spreading PF, and if that's what we need, Villy seems ok for it.
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Old 06-10-2006, 09:09 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamcz
PS - Not that it matters how I value the players, but personally I would be willing to structure the deal around Charlie and a different player besides Mo Pete, if I were the Bucks' GM.

I'd rather not trade for CV at all, since I want a tough defensive PF, but the Bucks' GM has been very clear that he wants a jump shooting, floor-spreading PF, and if that's what we need, Villy seems ok for it.

I am not going to quote your large post, because it's huge, and my response would make a monster post, so I'll try to keep it short.

I understand that Maurice Williams has a ton of upside as a 22 year old PG and I know that Jamaal Magloire is a decent center whom is okay, but severely overrated. However, I still don't feel they are worth a 17 point, 5 rebound SG/SF ironman like Morris Peterson and a rookie of the year runner up that plays SG/SF and can do so many things on the floor. Charlie is a stud, he is so talented offensively it is insane, he has so many moves, his potential is out of this world.

I don't think a year of Jamaal Magloire is worth the all-star like years that we will get out of Charlie Villaneuva. And Morris Peterson has been so tremendous for the Toronto franchise, and he finally peaked last year, I don't feel like he would be worthwhile to trade them both for Magloire. I think it may also be because I don't think that Williams is the franchise point guard that we need. I guess it's all a matter of opinion, both fans would rather keep their own players.
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Old 06-10-2006, 09:12 PM   #22
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wow that sucks
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Old 06-10-2006, 09:25 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pistol Pete
a rookie of the year runner up that plays SG/SF and can do so many things on the floor. Charlie is a stud, he is so talented offensively it is insane, he has so many moves, his potential is out of this world.
You're on crack if you think he can play sg. He is a power forward who can play out of position at sf. Until he shows five minutes of solid defense, he has Glen Robinson/Tim Thomas potential.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pistol Pete
I don't think a year of Jamaal Magloire is worth the all-star like years that we will get out of Charlie Villaneuva.
Villy is no all-star. His competition for the next 5 years will include Lebron, Bosh, J'Oneal, Okafor, Howard, Pierce, Carter, Aldridge, Bargnani, etc.

Let's not get too carried away over a guy who racks up stats on a bad team, and plays zero defense.

Last edited by adamcz : 06-10-2006 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 06-10-2006, 09:44 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamcz
You're on crack if you think he can play sg. He is a power forward who can play out of position at sf. Until he shows five minutes of solid defense, he has Glen Robinson/Tim Thomas potential.

Villy is no all-star. His competition for the next 5 years will include Lebron, Bosh, J'Oneal, Okafor, Howard, Pierce, Carter, Aldridge, Bargnani, etc.

Let's not get too carried away over a guy who racks up stats on a bad team, and plays zero defense.

The first quote you made was obviously a typo, I had about 10 things going at once, my mistake. Charlie is obviously a SF/PF but I just wasn't paying attention. He has great potential on the offensive end, I would agree though that to take the next step, he is going to atleast become an average defender, because he is indeed awful.

As far as the second quote, I made sure I wrote All-Star like year, because I never see him getting to an all-star game despite whatever numbers he may get just because of the great forwards that the Eastern Conference currently possesses. So once again, I guess I agree with you, or you have misinterpreted what I have written, Charlie will probably not be an all-star, but he will have years where his numbers are superb.

I don't think it's fair to say that we cannot get carried away over a guy who racks up stats on a bad team. The guy is a rookie and plays within our team system. It's not like he's Joe Johnson just scoring and shooting whenever he wants on Atlanta. He was the 3rd or 4th option this year as a rookie and was able to get 13 points and 7 rebounds per game. His potential and skill is simply amazing. I don't think you can use the fact that the team he plays for is bad as a reason, because our offense was one of the best in the league, and Charlie was able to contribute to it alot. As far as the defense goes, I think he will improve with experience, but like I stated above, he didn't defend at all last year as a rookie so I agree with you.
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Old 06-10-2006, 09:53 PM   #25
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Fair enough. I pretty much agree with all of that.

Maybe the only place we disagree is on his relative value compared to slightly less talented players at more in-demand positions (pg & c).
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Old 06-10-2006, 11:29 PM   #26
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it's Villy or Mo pete not both for Mags and mo williams
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Old 06-11-2006, 06:32 AM   #27
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jamal maglorie for eric williams 35th pick (filler) is good enough for me.
We don't have any assets that mill. wants and i really don't want to trade joey or cv3.
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Old 06-11-2006, 11:21 AM   #28
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we cant trade the 35 pick dats DENHAM
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Old 06-11-2006, 11:59 AM   #29
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OK, I now have a question. If that trade was in the works, would salaries match up? And I think this rumour was started justy because Jamaal Magloire wants to come home and we are in depserate need of a true center. I don't think it will happen but who knows in this league.
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Old 06-12-2006, 09:46 PM   #30
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Quote:
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OK, I now have a question. If that trade was in the works, would salaries match up? And I think this rumour was started justy because Jamaal Magloire wants to come home and we are in depserate need of a true center. I don't think it will happen but who knows in this league.
The salaries match up just fine, and there are a few reasons why it makes sense for both teams. For Toronto:

-They're about to have 3 pf's and no center
-Magloire is a top 10 center, and is from Toronto
-Toronto has no pg
-Mo is one of the best young pg's in the league

For Milwaukee:
-Magloire and Williams are expendable because of Bogut and Ford
-GM says he wants a jump shooting PF (even if adamcz disagrees)
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