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Old 08-17-2006, 12:53 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron_Artesticle
Yes, he should be in the hall.

People hate on Webber for being a choker, loser, etc. but the man has flat out made teams better his entire career. Golden State has barely sniffed the playoffs since he left. It took Washington 7 years to get out of the lottery post Webber. If Bibby were so great he wouldn't have let the Kings have a worse record than Portland last year before Artest came on board. Webber has taken 3 perennial losers and brought them to the playoffs. Each team has been worse off after he left. That accounts for something.
Making your team better doesn't make you clutch. Bibby isn't a franchise player, and that's part of why it's not cool for Webber to have put the team on Bibby's shoulder's at crunchtime. A truly great player would have stepped up, not back.

Quote:
Webber's reputation for choking when it counts is also largely undeserved. He rarely gets credit for playing well in the playoffs and almost always gets bashed when he doesn't. Nobody talks about him dropping a triple double on Dirk in the playoffs of 04 while on one leg. Or him battling MVP KG to 7 games that same year (a series in which he was the only King to bring it every game). Bibby has yet to have a good series without Webber. The Kings had quite a few chokers on that 2002 team - Peja, Christie, Hedo. Webber was not one of them. He has hit numerous game winning shots for the Kings. Just off the top of my head I remember multiple winners against Utah and a 3 pointer against Boston.

Getting a triple-double is nice but in '04 Dirk was one of the worst defensive 4s in the game. And regular-season game-winners? I'm talking about the playoffs here--the place where Webber fails.

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No matter how you cut it, Webber is a winner and is HOF worthy.
You and him are both in for some severe disappointment come voting time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allball
Well Mr. Green, allow me to disagree a tad. Webber is a smart player who knows his limitations and the strength of his teammates and Bibby was hot at the time. Webber was shooting his mid-range shot which was off but he also was setting guys up with nice passes. Now CW was not the clutch shooter option at the time. Bibby was. Much like Kobe and Shaq. When the Lakers needed a clutch shot they went to Kobe or Fisher or Horry. Much like Russell's Celtics. Russ didnt take the clutch shots himself and for the most part with the exception of a couple of memorable games neither did Magic. I dont ever recall Shaq making a clutch shot game winner in a playoff game. he has a history of disappearing in 4th quarters. yes he would get fouled but the point is someone else did it. I dont think it diminished his status one bit to defer to Bibby. There are other things you can do in the clutch besides shoot.The timeout fiasco is what makes people watch Webber so closely with the game on the line but he put his team in a position to win and go to the Finals and it takes a pretty good player to do that.
I wouldn't dispute Webber's intelligence; he's got a good understanding of the game, a big doesn't pass as well as he does if he doesn't understand what's going on. What I criticize is his play when it's most important. That bball IQ may drop 100 points in the last 5 minutes of a playoff game. It's not like Shaq, because when LA was winning Championships PJ often left Shaq in the game in the clutch and Shaq would hit at least 1 a lot of the time while also dominating in the paint when he got the ball. Don't think for a second that you get 3 Finals MVPs while disappearing in the 4th. That made no sense, if he was really like that those MVP awards belong to Bryant. Bill Russell really shouldn't even be mentioned here, but 90% of his impact was defense and rebounding. He was a different kind of player. He didn't stop getting blocks and boards and throwing outlets in the fourth like how Webber will stop getting baskets. And this also why Webber's choking was so bad. If you're the team's top scorer the team has gotten used to being the man, scoring all of these points, being the man. Now all of a sudden out of nowhere a roleplayer like Bibby is supposed to take the game over, because you can't come through? The Kings didn't trade for Webber so that he could set picks and hand the ball off, they got him to dominate.
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Old 08-17-2006, 01:02 PM   #32
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Dominique Wilkins

This man made the Hall of Fame and how much playoff sucess did he have? Is it really all that different from Webbers siuation? No not really . What times did he even have any a chance to be clutch?
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Old 08-17-2006, 01:12 PM   #33
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1: Nique has 6 seasons averaging over 28ppg. Twice over 30. He was far more durable than Webber and played until he was 39 with only one season under 17 ppg (his last). In the playoffs he averaged over 25 ppg 5 times, and 30 twice. He was no choker and his career was far greater than webber's. They shouldn't be compared.

2: Nique wasn't an HoF shoo-in. He didn't make it on the first ballot.
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Old 08-17-2006, 01:19 PM   #34
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Webber's choking ability is greatly overexaggerated, if it wasn't for the timeout he wouldn't be nearly as ragged on it.

Ewing and Malone both regularly disappointed in the playoffs, yet would you say they're anything but first-ballot Hall of Famers? Of course not.

And have you seen who is in the Hall of Fame? Alex English, who never even came close to winning anything ever in his career, is in. Robert Parish, who never had anything close to Hall of Fame numbers, is in. Dan Issel, who didn't do sh!t outside the ABA is in.

Yet Artis Gilmore, who was better than both Parish and Issel, is not in?

The Hall of Fame is a load of bullsh!t. I wouldn't be surprised if Tony Parker got in and Chris Webber never did.

As for Webber, I think in 20-30 years time he will be like the Spencer Haywood/Artis Gilmore of this generation. Nobody will ever talk about him except somebody who looks at his resume and says "why isn't he in the Hall of Fame?" And they'll be right.

Quote:
Grant Hill: 7-time All-Star, with one of those appearnaces due to a sympathy vote from fans as he wasn't even playing his first year in Orlando. A sympathy vote from the writers could put him in the Hall, but injuries have kept his career from being truly HOF-worthy.

That sympathy vote just makes up for the missed appearance from the lockout season. As for his career, he had a better five years than James Worthy ever had. He was arguably a top-5 player for a good four or five years, something dozens of players in the HoF couldn't say.
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Old 08-17-2006, 01:22 PM   #35
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: Nique has 6 seasons averaging over 28ppg. Twice over 30. He was far more durable than Webber and played until he was 39 with only one season under 17 ppg (his last). In the playoffs he averaged over 25 ppg 5 times, and 30 twice. He was no choker and his career was far greater than webber's. They shouldn't be compared.
Ok so you are going by points now? Stats matter here eh? Alright then Webber has seven 20 and 10 season under his belt along with 2 other close seasons 2 that.Webber has also been to the Conf. Finals before and I'm pretty sure Wilkins has never been there.In the playoffs Webber avg. 24 pts 4 times and has been the Franchise player for a team that was a serious contender for atleast 3 seasons or more...Wilkins ? Webber prob. won'y make it his first time around but it will come. Wilkins lack of Playoff success proves that the playoffs aren't all that matters...Unless you want to rely on his stats in the playoffs.
Quote:

Webber's choking ability is greatly overexaggerated, if it wasn't for the timeout he wouldn't be nearly as ragged on it.

Ewing and Malone both regularly disappointed in the playoffs, yet would you say they're anything but first-ballot Hall of Famers? Of course not.

And have you seen who is in the Hall of Fame? Alex English, who never even came close to winning anything ever in his career, is in. Robert Parish, who never had anything close to Hall of Fame numbers, is in. Dan Issel, who didn't do sh!t outside the ABA is in.

Yet Artis Gilmore, who was better than both Parish and Issel, is not in?

The Hall of Fame is a load of bullsh!t. I wouldn't be surprised if Tony Parker got in and Chris Webber never did.

As for Webber, I think in 20-30 years time he will be like the Spencer Haywood/Artis Gilmore of this generation. Nobody will ever talk about him except somebody who looks at his resume and says "why isn't he in the Hall of Fame?" And they'll be right.

Quote:
Grant Hill: 7-time All-Star, with one of those appearnaces due to a sympathy vote from fans as he wasn't even playing his first year in Orlando. A sympathy vote from the writers could put him in the Hall, but injuries have kept his career from being truly HOF-worthy.

That sympathy vote just makes up for the missed appearance from the lockout season. As for his career, he had a better five years than James Worthy ever had. He was arguably a top-5 player for a good four or five years, something dozens of players in the HoF couldn't say.

True. Webber has had far greater careers then alot of guys in the HOF. The bad things that Webber has done have greatly over powered the good things. If Webber didn't call he infamous "timeout" or didn't have the money allegations from Michigan University then i think he would be put in better status in peoples minds, Both as basketball player and a person.

Last edited by HALLandOATES : 08-17-2006 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 08-17-2006, 01:44 PM   #36
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Should Webber have looked to score more in that series? Yeah, he should have. I'm not saying he's a monster in the clutch, but he's also not the invisible man you make him out to be. You don't take your team from the dregs of the NBA to game 7 against the Lakers by dissapearing in all the big games you play.

Webber's never been defined by his scoring. It's his versatility that made him special. The offense ran through him and he was the decision maker on the floor. Yes, he decided to give the ball up to Bibby for the big shots but was that a bad thing? Bibby could not miss at the time and he did hit the shot to force overtime. His decision making led to the game winning shot of game 5 and the OT forcing shot of game 7. You feel Webber pussed out, I feel he made the right decision. The Kings were also never a team that liked to force the issue with any player. It would have been out of character for the team had Webber broken those plays and taken those shots. For better or worse the Kings stuck with what got them there.

It's not in Webber's personality to put a team on his back and carry them to victory with his scoring. But that's never been what makes him great. He still ran the offense, still defended, still rebounded. Not everyone in the HOF can do what you describe.
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Old 08-17-2006, 02:00 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by MaverickFan4Life
The basketball HOF is a joke, so who gives a shyt
This pretty much sums up my feeling about the MVP award as well.

This entire debate about Webber highlights how much a players image is taken into account for such things as getting into the HOF. Many have noted that Webber doesn't come through in the clutch, but KG doesn't either and he's going to be a first-ballot HOFer. So will Steve Nash. Is there anyone who would argue that Nash is a better player than Webber?

Its all about image, and unfortunately for Webber his is of a whiner, cry-baby, choker, etc. He just always had this sullen, pouting way about him that reminded me of a big kid in a man's body. When you look at his stats and his body of work, you can absolutely say that he is a better player than more than a few HOFers, and belongs there himself. Ultimately, though, I think his negative image will keep him out.
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Old 08-17-2006, 02:01 PM   #38
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No, C-Webb isnt good anymore, if he would have stayed with the Kings he might have had a chance, and hes just making the 76ers worse.
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Old 08-17-2006, 02:08 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Ricardo Tubbs
Webber's choking ability is greatly overexaggerated, if it wasn't for the timeout he wouldn't be nearly as ragged on it.
It was the begininning of a long career of gaffes.

Quote:
Ewing and Malone both regularly disappointed in the playoffs, yet would you say they're anything but first-ballot Hall of Famers? Of course not.
They also have both lead their teams to the Finals. And Malone has two MVP awards. If Webber had two MVPs we wouldn't be having this conversation. Oh, and Malone is also now #2 in points scored, all-time. And Malone missed less games in his Jazz career than Webber would in a normal season. And I could go on.

Quote:
And have you seen who is in the Hall of Fame? Alex English, who never even came close to winning anything ever in his career, is in. Robert Parish, who never had anything close to Hall of Fame numbers, is in. Dan Issel, who didn't do sh!t outside the ABA is in.

Yet Artis Gilmore, who was better than both Parish and Issel, is not in?
Chief has 3 rings. You may not like it, but Championships are part of an HOF resume, even if you're only the third-best player on your team. You don't know what you're talking about with Issel; he was averaging over 20 ppg well into the '80s, post-ABA. Alex english, from '81-'82 to 88-89, never4 averaged under 25 and was close to 30 once.
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The Hall of Fame is a load of bullsh!t. I wouldn't be surprised if Tony Parker got in and Chris Webber never did.
Me neither, but mainly because of international players being graded differently. He's the greatest French ballplayer ever.

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As for Webber, I think in 20-30 years time he will be like the Spencer Haywood/Artis Gilmore of this generation. Nobody will ever talk about him except somebody who looks at his resume and says "why isn't he in the Hall of Fame?" And they'll be right.
Anyone wondering why can just ask me, I'll let 'em know.

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That sympathy vote just makes up for the missed appearance from the lockout season. As for his career, he had a better five years than James Worthy ever had. He was arguably a top-5 player for a good four or five years, something dozens of players in the HoF couldn't say.
Worthy has what, 4 Championshis or something? And also a Finals MVP award. When it comes to the Hall, rings matter. I don't think it's totally fair, but it's a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HALLandOATES
Ok so you are going by points now? Stats matter here eh? Alright then Webber has seven 20 and 10 season under his belt along with 2 other close seasons 2 that.Webber has also been to the Conf. Finals before and I'm pretty sure Wilkins has never been there.In the playoffs Webber avg. 24 pts 4 times and has been the Franchise player for a team that was a serious contender for atleast 3 seasons or more...Wilkins ? Webber prob. won'y make it his first time around but it will come. Wilkins lack of Playoff success proves that the playoffs aren't all that matters...Unless you want to rely on his stats in the playoffs.
You don't seem to get it. When a guy is scoring 28+ ppg he's approaching or at Jordan-level statistics. And I wasn't just pointing out scoring, I pointed out that he was also doing it in the playoffs. Nique always brought it in the postseason. He was just a victim of MJ and Bird's dominant squads. He never got a supporting cast like what Webber had in Sac. His best teammates were Kevin Willis and Doc. I've never seen Webber average 30 in a playoff series. Have you?
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Old 08-17-2006, 02:12 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Shepseskaf
This pretty much sums up my feeling about the MVP award as well.

This entire debate about Webber highlights how much a players image is taken into account for such things as getting into the HOF. Many have noted that Webber doesn't come through in the clutch, but KG doesn't either and he's going to be a first-ballot HOFer. So will Steve Nash. Is there anyone who would argue that Nash is a better player than Webber?

Its all about image, and unfortunately for Webber his is of a whiner, cry-baby, choker, etc. He just always had this sullen, pouting way about him that reminded me of a big kid in a man's body. When you look at his stats and his body of work, you can absolutely say that he is a better player than more than a few HOFers, and belongs there himself. Ultimately, though, I think his negative image will keep him out.
If C-Webb had MVP awards, we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's the difference between his HoF resume and Kg's or Nash's. And KG has also been more durable.
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Old 08-17-2006, 02:13 PM   #41
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His best teammates were Kevin Willis and Doc. I've never seen Webber average 30 in a playoff series. Have you?

No but 24 , 10 and 5 pretty much makes up for that.

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You don't seem to get it. When a guy is scoring 28+ ppg he's approaching or at Jordan-level statistics.
You don't seem to get it, he was on a shlt team scoring 28 plus...so who gives ?
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Nique always brought it in the postseason. He was just a victim of MJ and Bird's dominant squads
So now he has a excuse now I guess for not being sucessful in the playoffs. Shaq and Kobe are no short comings themselves.
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Old 08-17-2006, 02:30 PM   #42
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Chris Webber didn't choke in the playoffs as much as people say he did. In that 02 playoff run he averaged close to 24/11/5 on 50% shooting.

In fact he had plenty of good playoff games that year:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=UTA
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=UTA
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=DAL
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=DAL
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=LAL
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=LAL
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=LAL
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=LAL
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=LAL
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=LAL

I got all of those just from one playoff run. He wasn't as big a choker as he's made out to be and he makes some game winners(I remember this sick 3 he had against I think houston).
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Old 08-17-2006, 02:47 PM   #43
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It was the begininning of a long career of gaffes.

Exactly what is this long career of gaffes? He lost a seven-game series to the Lakers. He did some stupid sh!t when he was young. Big whoop.

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You may not like it, but Championships are part of an HOF resume

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You don't know what you're talking about with Issel; he was averaging over 20 ppg well into the '80s, post-ABA. Alex english, from '81-'82 to 88-89, never4 averaged under 25 and was close to 30 once.

Okay, I got it. You either score, or you win a title. Gotcha. (For the record, I don't actually disagree that the HoF is a sham that usually only works on those two principles.)

Quote:
Nique always brought it in the postseason. He was just a victim of MJ and Bird's dominant squads.

And you could say Webber was the victim of a team that had the best player in the game and a top-5 player too, not to mention maybe the greatest coach ever (Rick Adelman=bigger choker than Webber).

Quote:
I've never seen Webber average 30 in a playoff series. Have you?

That's absolutely frikkin retarded. Webber averaged 23.7/10.8/4.7/50% over 16 games in the '02 playoffs. Those are epic numbers. Only Garnett, Dirk and Duncan could top those overall numbers among active big men. If "score 30 in a series" was the critieria the HoF would shrink dramatically.

Webber was never a true 30PPG scorer, he was always an all-around player who was one of, if not the, best passing power forwards in history who did everything and score. Hell, he averaged 27PPG one season, even Dirk has never done that before.

By the time Webber retires, he will probably be top-40 all-time in points and rebounds. He will be top-10 among big men in all-time assists. No historical big man who has those kinds of numbers isn't in the HoF. So his statistics are not a problem. His resume is no worse than Bob Lanier's or Dan Issel's, it's better as a matter of fact.

But apparently points are all that matter to you. So Gilbert Arenas must be better than Elton Brand, then?
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Old 08-17-2006, 02:55 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by BradMiller52
Chris Webber didn't choke in the playoffs as much as people say he did. In that 02 playoff run he averaged close to 24/11/5 on 50% shooting.

In fact he had plenty of good playoff games that year:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=UTA
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=UTA
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=DAL
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=DAL
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=LAL
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=LAL
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=LAL
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=LAL
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=LAL
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...m1=SAC&tm2=LAL

I got all of those just from one playoff run. He wasn't as big a choker as he's made out to be and he makes some game winners(I remember this sick 3 he had against I think houston).

i agree with this point. you can't expect post players to be able to carry a team at the end of playoff games. defenses are too sophisticated, it's too hard to get the ball deep into the post when you need quick hoops or when you're trying to work the clock down because if the double comes sometimes there's no time to kick it out. shaq needed kobe in the endgame. wilt needed west. kareem had oscar and magic. duncan had horry and kerr. russell had havlicek and sam jones. if a big guy carries his team throughout the game, he needs a perimeter player to step up and finish it off. usually.
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Old 08-17-2006, 02:59 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
If C-Webb had MVP awards, we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's the difference between his HoF resume and Kg's or Nash's. And KG has also been more durable.
There are any number of factors that come into play when a player is up for the HOF. Of course it would help if Webb had an MVP, but most players in the Hall don't. I would argue that the award itself is so devalued that it shouldn't have the same weight in a HOF vote that it once did.

The things you mentioned did point out some differences between a Webber HOF candidacy as compared to KG's and Nash's, but from a pure basketball standpoint there isn't any glaring reason that Webber shouldn't be a sure thing for the Hall, just as the other two will be -- and yet, in my opinion, he won't be. That's why I noted the possible inclusion of the "image" and "perception" factors into the voting process.
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