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Old 12-12-2006, 09:58 PM   #211
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How was the cupboard bare? The '02 team had 8 draft picks including guys like Grossman and Jacobs. Lose Grossman, get Leak along with WRs like Jackson and Caldwell, plus a 5 star RB from the year before, Ciatrick Fason. And, this:

"As a sophomore in Spurrier's system, Grossman had one of the best seasons a quarterback ever had in college football. As a junior in Zook's system, Grossman struggled, fell from Heisman grace, and perhaps lost seven-figure salary dollars in the upcoming NFL Draft."

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So how good of a coach you are is endemic to how good of a recruiter you are? There's plenty of examples in both football AND basketball that suggest otherwise.

No, I'm just wondering why top flight players would commit to a coach that hasn't proven much, who's winning % is about .200 below the previous coach at both places he's coached at and to a team that has averaged 9 losses a year for the past 5 years. He must be one hell of a liar, err...recruiter.

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The old saying about a rebuilding process is that year one, you lose big, year two, you lose close, and year three you start to win.

It would be nice if some Husker fans felt that way...

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Old 12-13-2006, 02:09 AM   #212
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How was the cupboard bare? The '02 team had 8 draft picks including guys like Grossman and Jacobs. Lose Grossman, get Leak along with WRs like Jackson and Caldwell, plus a 5 star RB from the year before, Ciatrick Fason.
I didn't say they were void of talent. Certainly not. There was talent there.

I said it was relatively bare. What they had, though, is not what they once had. What Zook played a large part in recruiting in the early-mid 90's.

Considering the upgrades that had been made at Georgia, LSU, even Ole Miss at the time- really, conference-wide- combined with the downturn in Florida's recruiting from where it had been several years before, and the SEC was no longer at a competitive disadvantage against the Gators. By the time Zook arrived, the conference had caught up. He had no chance to continue the same kind of dominance Florida had been enjoying. I'm not sure any coach would have.

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And, this:

"As a sophomore in Spurrier's system, Grossman had one of the best seasons a quarterback ever had in college football. As a junior in Zook's system, Grossman struggled, fell from Heisman grace, and perhaps lost seven-figure salary dollars in the upcoming NFL Draft."
First of all, what's that from? If you're going to quote something, you should attribute it or provide a link.

A quick search finds that it's from a commentary written Jan. 7, 2003 by Peter Kerasotis.

http://www.centralohio.com/ohiostate...ll/726099.html

It's an opinion piece, written the day after Grossman declared for the draft. The knee-jerk, reactionary tone to the column undermines its credibility, especially considering that Zook loved Grossman, and vice versa.

Kerasotis did have one good point, though: "If Leak is a harbinger of what Zook will do on the recruiting front, then sunny days may yet lie ahead."

Well, I'd certainly say. That recruiting class- Zook's first full one, considering a majority of his first class in 2002 (which was good, but not great) was recruited by Spurrier- was ranked No. 2 in the nation by Rivals.com. His next was ranked No. 7 in the nation.

They are now the juniors, seniors (and redshirt sophomores) that make up the core of the No. 2 team in the nation. If you think anything else is the main reason that Florida is in the national title game, well, I don't know what else to tell you.

Zook never got a chance to coach his guys as upperclassmen. And I don't know how you can fully judge a coach's ability to build a championship program if he isn't allowed to do that.

Let's back up a bit. Despite how much better Grossman may have been as a sophomore- and he was- he was still very good as a junior, despite having lost Jabari Gaffney AND Reche Caldwell.

You have a penchant for leaving out important facts that severely undermine your argument, because you forgot that Grossman lost not one, but two, 1,000 yard receivers. How many quarterbacks, no matter who their coach is, are as efficient when they lose two of the best receivers in the nation?

Despite what he may have possibly lost in terms of draft stock- and considering his size and his penchant for unnecessary risks, it's debatable that even a repeat of his sophomore season would've made him a Top 10 pick- he was still a 1st-round selection.

And even still, is comparing a QB's numbers under Spurrier to his numbers under any other coach even fair? That's like saying Kobe Bryant is nothing because he's not Michael Jordan. Spurrier is arguably the greatest passing game guru in college football history.


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No, I'm just wondering why top flight players would commit to a coach that hasn't proven much
I've already given you lots of reasons. Guys want to play with Juice. Arrelious Benn got the ball rolling for this class. Several of our recruits and current players are teammates/friends with other blue-chip recruits. Several of the nation's top 50-75 players happen to reside in Illinois this year, and Zook got in good with them before anyone else did.

Add to that, he can now tell recruits that the team playing Ohio State for the national title was a roster that he pretty much put together.

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who's winning % is about .200 below the previous coach at both places he's coached at and to a team that has averaged 9 losses a year for the past 5 years. He must be one hell of a liar, err...recruiter.
It's a bit spurious to accuse others of being liars when you manipulate the truth so much. Zook has been here two years and was at Florida for three years; Turner was at Illinois for nine years, and Spurrier was at Florida for even longer. He inherited a less talented roster from each than those coaches had at their best, and in the case of Illinois, a totally bare cupboard.

I don't see what lying Zook has had to do here. I don't see how he can lie. The recruits aren't oblivious to our lack of success. They know.

What Zook, Locksley, etc have apparently sold these guys on is that they can team up with young guys already here like Juice, Rashard Mendenhall, Jeff Cumberland, Vontae Davis, Travon Bellamy, Antonio James, etc, to turn Illinois around and build a winner. I don't see that as a lie. I see it as a terrific sell job of something that's very realistic.

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Old 12-13-2006, 02:16 AM   #213
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In other news, McCray denied Tom Lemming's report that he had already decided on Illinois. Doesn't say that he isn't going to Illinois, per se.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, but my guess is that you don't schedule a news conference on ESPNU if you don't want to announce it for yourself, and he just didn't want it coming out.
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Old 12-13-2006, 11:21 AM   #214
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Illinois football is on the way up, no doubt about it. However recruits don't always equal success, but it sure can't hurt.
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Old 12-13-2006, 03:02 PM   #215
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In football, moreso than basketball, it usually does. Not always, you're right, but at least 9 times out of 10 in a college football game, the team with the most talent wins.
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Old 12-13-2006, 04:00 PM   #216
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Wake Forest doesn't have many great recruits. They are an exception to the rule?
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:16 PM   #217
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You have a penchant for leaving out important facts that severely undermine your argument, because you forgot that Grossman lost not one, but two, 1,000 yard receivers. How many quarterbacks, no matter who their coach is, are as efficient when they lose two of the best receivers in the nation?

That wasn't even my point, that was some writer's point. I've seen QBs get it done without having top tier WRs, so why is that the #1 reason for Grossman? Oregon State's QB did better after losing a 1,500 yard WR. A Freshman QB, Riley Skinner, was pretty efficient without having great WRs. NU's leading WR from last year is barely #3 this year, but Taylor has been much better this year. Brandon Cox lost his top 3 WRs from last season and yet his efficiency went up this year. Stocco has maintained the same level of efficiency whilst losing his top 3 WRs and a RB like Calhoun. What, Rex Grossman is no John Stocco?

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It's a bit spurious to accuse others of being liars when you manipulate the truth so much. Zook has been here two years and was at Florida for three years; Turner was at Illinois for nine years, and Spurrier was at Florida for even longer. He inherited a less talented roster from each than those coaches had at their best, and in the case of Illinois, a totally bare cupboard.

How is stating the truth lying? His current winning percentages are what they are. Urban Meyer has improved all 3 teams he's coached at in both his 1st and 2nd year. Do you think Meyer inherited a stacked roster at Bowling Green and/or Utah? You say that I'm manipulating the truth, but what do you think you're doing? You want Zook to succeed, so you've made many excuses for him. You make it seem like none of it was Zook's fault. Has he seen any glimmer of success yet? I'm not saying he's a failure already as it's young in his HC career, but he's yet to show that he can hack it.

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I don't see what lying Zook has had to do here. I don't see how he can lie. The recruits aren't oblivious to our lack of success. They know.

A lot of coaches lie (like exaggerating, stretching the truth and such) to recruits. I wasn't really taking a jab at Zook there, it was more about recruiting.
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Old 12-14-2006, 08:07 PM   #218
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And the hits just keep on comin'.....

D'Angelo McCray, as expected, commits to Illinois.

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-onlin...g_mccray.shtml
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Old 12-14-2006, 08:58 PM   #219
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How many of the Fr. do you think will start?
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Old 12-14-2006, 11:33 PM   #220
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Hmm....tough to say. Our defense was pretty good last year- better than the numbers, considering how terrible of field position our special teams usually left them with and how often our offense kept them on the field- so you may not see a lot of new starters, because almost everyone is back.

So while I think McCray, Martez Wilson and Josh Brent (the last two haven't committed yet, of course but will in a week barring a total shocker) will play a lot, I don't know if any of them start. I'm guessing either Brent or McCray starts at one of the tackle spots, and Martez may end up being an outside linebacker and taking Antonio Steele's starting spot.

Robert Hughes, same thing. If he pulls the Illinois hat out of the bag at the Army All-American Bowl, he'll get his share of carries next year, but Rashard Mendenhall is the starter.

Too early to say, of course, but the only true freshman that is a stone-cold, lead-pipe, 100% lock to start is Arrelious Benn. His name is in ink on top of the WR depth chart the second he shows up on campus in January.

EDIT: There's also folks out there who think Marvin Austin is going to pick Illinois. I think it's safe to say that we could ink his name into the starting lineup if he picked us.

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Old 12-15-2006, 04:07 PM   #221
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The future is looking bright for Illinois football. Our D line is gona be crazy with Wilson and McCray. It will be unstoppable if Austin commits. Do we have a top 25 class this year?
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Old 12-15-2006, 05:42 PM   #222
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Your class is currently 19th at Rivals.

How much time does Zook have?
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Old 12-15-2006, 05:49 PM   #223
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19th on Rivals, 15th on Scout. Could toe the line of being a Top 10 class if we get Martez, Brent and Hughes.

By the way, Marvin Austin said he eliminated Illinois from the picture. Then again, Arrelious Benn wasn't seriously considering Illinois, but Locksley kept working, so who knows.

Austin was probably a longshot anyway.

As far as how much time Zook has, well, he sure as hell better get more time than the idiots at Florida gave him. Fortunately for Zooker, Illinois fans don't have the unrealistic expectations that Florida fans have.

But with the talent we're bringing in, it's time to start winning some football games. If we aren't bowling by 2008, Zook's seat is gonna get real warm.
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Old 12-16-2006, 06:47 PM   #224
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I went to the first two games of the High School Shootout at the Assembly Hall today. Three potential Illinois targets in the first two games. Bill Cole plays at 5:00 and Mike Tisdale at 7:00, but I didn't want to be there all day and I've seen those guys play before.

Verdell Jones, 6-foot-4 junior PG, Champaign Central

This was the first time I've seen Jones this season, and I was impressed. He finished with 24 points, and by my count, about 7 assists and 6 boards.

He's a little like a mini-Shaun Livingston (who happens to be his godbrother). Verdell is VERY skinny. At 6'4", he probably weighs 150 pounds. Maybe 160. But like I always say, if that's the biggest concern you have about a player, you're off to a good start.

He can score, but he's very much a true point guard with excellent vision, and he's a highly creative playmaker. As soon as he gets the ball via rebound or outlet pass, his eyes immediately go upcourt, and a couple of times today it resulted in him connecting over defenders from 40-50 feet away for an assist. That could get him in trouble against college defenses, but he seems like he does a good job of only taking it when it's there.

Verdell has a very tight handle on the ball and can do the fancy stuff in traffic and maintain control of the ball. Again, it's stuff he might not get away with at the next level, but he's not out of control with it and is an intelligent player.

Didn't really show the ability to finish at the rim aside from on a couple of runouts, which you'd like a tall PG to be able to do, but he can get in the lane and create for others.

Although he did miss three straight FTs after being fouled on a three-pointer, he showed a pretty good-looking outside stroke when open, making a couple of threes and a couple other long twos. Didn't really show much in terms of being able to create separation on his jumper or in terms of being able to make outside shots under pressure (though he knocked down a couple such midrange shots), but he didn't really have to do so today, either.

Defensively, like a lot of blue-chip high schoolers he doesn't really do much. He gets lost and wanders a lot, but despite his lack of bulk, he isn't afraid to battle in the paint for rebounds- defensive or offensive.

All in all, Verdell looks like the best prospect from Champaign in years and if he adds some weight between now and the summer circuit, I could see him exploding on the national scene (and with Rivals ranking him as the No. 10 PG in the junior class, he's already started to).

But he absolutely has to get bigger and stronger. No question about it.

Lewis Jackson, 5-foot-9 junior PG, Decatur Eisenhower

If you could combine Jackson's strength and athleticism with Verdell's skillset, you'd have Derrick Rose.

Honestly, I wasn't enamored with Jackson in the first half against Peoria Central. But he heated up and finished with 15 points, 7 boards and 5 assists and I can see why a lot of people love him.

What stands out about him, of course, is his speed and leaping ability, the former being apparent all game long, and the latter being apparent not only in the 7 boards, but as the co-star of Eisenhower's pregame dunk show in the layup line. Little dude gets way up.

He's a vocal leader on the court, much moreseo than Verdell is. Jackson seems to have a good grasp on when to distribute and when he needs to take the shot, and he isn't afraid to take big shots.

He does a nice job running the offense in the halfcourt, but nothing special. Looks like a very good playmaker in transition. One pass in particular stood out, threading the needle a baseline cutter in stride from halfcourt for a layup. It was probably my favorite play of the two games I watched.

Defensively, he really gets after it. He was on Peoria Central star D.J. Richardson for much of the game and pretty much took him out of it, despite giving up about six inches or so.

There's a lot of things I like about Lew Jack, and I think he could be an exciting playmaker and on-ball defender in college, but I don't know how much offense he can generate in the halfcourt. There have certainly been sub-6 footers that have done so, but I don't know if Jackson has the kind of knack for scoring, or the great shooting touch (though he did knock down a couple of impressive treys today, including one falling down as the third quarter ended) to do it.

I could see him as a nice change-of-pace guard to Demetri McCamey, but I have a hard time seeing him being a really successful full-time PG for a good college team.

D.J. Richardson, 6-foot-3 sophomore SG, Peoria Central

He didn't do much today, scoring 11 points, but I like his potential.

He scored 10 of his 11 points in about a two-minute stretch in the first half, knocking down a couple of threes in a row, a short baseline jumper from the right side, and making both FTs after being fouled on a drive.

Richardson was a nonfactor aside from that brief stretch for, in my eyes, three reasons: 1)Jackson took over defensive responsibilities on him, 2)he didn't work hard enough to get the ball, and 3)his teammates did a poor job of getting him the ball. Peoria's coach, Dan Ruffin, could be heard yelling "Get it to D.J.!" several times, to no avail, in the second half.

The first point, well, it happens sometimes. Jackson's a year older and a lot stronger (Richardson isn't Verdell skinny, or even as skinny as his cousin Jamar Smith, but he still needs a few more pounds), and a good defender. The second point, it will come with time. He's a high school sophomore, I don't expect him to be as good as Rip Hamilton, or even his older cousin, at working to get open. The third point, not much Richardson can do. Sometimes your teammates just suck.

But D.J. has a great-looking outside shot, is pretty athletic and has a willingness to attack the basket. He didn't have much success at attacking it today, because Decatur's athletic 6'8" center Jeremy Robinson controlled the paint, blocking a bunch of shots.

(Sidenote: I don't have extended thoughts on Robinson, because I mainly was watching these three guys in terms of a scouting report, but suffice to say that I think he arguably has some high D-I potential, but is likely a mid-major guy. If he was 6'10" or 6'11" with the same skillset, he'd be a Top 100 player, but he's not. No perimeter skills to speak of and a rudimentary offensive game)

Frankly, I thought Richardson should've gone to the line on at least a couple of his drives, but got no-calls on them, and was called for a charge on a sweet lefthanded layup that should've been an and-one.

He showed signs of being a quality ballhandler, beating Eisenhower's formidable press with the dribble a few times, and a decent passer, but he's definitely a wing, not a PG, from what I saw. Defensively, not much in either direction. He didn't show signs of being a lockdown guy like Jackson, nor was he lost and looking confused like Verdell.
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Old 12-18-2006, 02:51 AM   #225
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Back to actual Illinois basketball, not football/basketball recruiting.

If we take care of the ball in St. Louis the way we did today, Mizzou will beat us by double digits. I'm dead serious.

On a positive note, if Brian Randle keeps making outside shots the way he did today, there may only be two better players in the Big Ten.

He's knocked down some threes here or there before- like when he made a huge pair of threes at UNC last year- but his stroke looked really smooth today. Not fluky at all.
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