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Old 06-02-2008, 05:48 PM   #16
Mathius
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Default Re: Breaking down the Cavaliers player-by-player (Plain dealer article

Quote:
Originally Posted by B-Low
Ok here's my views on the Cavs players:
Big Z: To me he's the glue that keeps things together. He's been here longer than almost any player in the history of the team, and like the article noted his tip-ins are one of our most reliable means of scoring (which is sad). He's getting up there in age, but trading Z would definitely be a mistake. All the centers who would be upgrades from Z, aren't available, so trying to get a new center to replace him right now would be stupid. Best bet with the center position is to keep Z where he's at, and get a young center on the bench to start training to EVENTUALLY take Z's place

Do you think there's a chance we could trade Z for a 1st rounder that might pan out?

Quote:
Daniel Gibson: I don't know if i'm the only person in Cleveland that thinks this, but i think people have waaaaaaayyyy too much faith in Gibson.

You're not the only one. I liked the kid in that he was a steal for the 2nd round, but it's going to be a few years before he develops into a complete player that should vie for the starting job, and he didn't show near enough improvement this year, and was quite injury prone. I remember reading that he only took one day off this past off season. Clearly that wasn't the best idea, since his body obviously didn't handle it well. If he's going to work all off season, maybe he needs to consider changing up his conditioning regiment.

Quote:
Ben Wallace: If we fake a player's death do they come off the books? Seriously maybe we can convince Ben to just go away for a few years til his contract is up...

Doesn't bother me, because his contract is coming up soon. It would be nice if he would mentor a guy like Dwayne Jones and teach him a thing or two, but there's never been any indication that Wallace has the teaching gene in him. There's always a good chance he'll pan out next season too. You have to keep in mind, these 4 guys were jumping in at the trade deadline, so we're talking like 25 games or so to try and fit in?

Also, he's still an upgrade over Larry Hughes. Wallace provides defense and rebounding. Larry Hughes didn't provide much of anything except create a turnover occasionally, but his own turnovers usually just canceled that out..

Quote:
Delonte West: By FAR my favorite player that we got in the trade last year. I had never really seen him play since the Celtics were never on TV and neither was Seattle, but i was honestly very pleased with how he played, and of the 4 new players, he's the only one i really, really want to keep

I'm all for keeping him if he doesn't ask an outrageous sum of money. I think a nice 3 year deal in the MLE level area would be good. Right now he's the best guard we have on the roster. I just wish he'd be a bit more consistent. Seems like sometimes he's aggressive in trying to score and it works. Other times he's trying to be aggressive in pushing the ball, and he turns the ball over. He needs to find a nice middle ground. Most guys consider him to be a third guard on the roster, but I think he'd be fine in a championship situation with Lebron and another superstar guard on the roster.

Quote:
Joe Smith: I honestly don't care if he stays or goes. He was a good contributor, but not a unique one. In name, appearance and skills, he's just very generic.

Joe Smith was a very valuable scoring option off the bench this year. I would love to have him come back, again, assuming we could get him cheaply.

Quote:
Damon Jones and Eric Snow: RETIRE and be our new coaching staff please

Would someone please explain to me why you guys like these two idiots? Is it homerism?

Eric Snow may have been a pretty good post defender for a guard, and he made good decisions as far as not turning the ball over, but that's about it. As point guards go, he's pretty much undesirable, even in his prime. If he had any abilities at all, the 76ers might have done a little better when they went to the Finals.

I realize there are guys coaching who have never played in the NBA and they're doing it well, but when it comes to guys who HAVE played, I think their decision making on the court is a direct indication of how well they understand the game.

And I can't understand why anyone would like Damon Jones for any reason let alone think the guy is suited for coaching. He's arrogant, immature, inappropriate at times even, and just generally has poor class.

He can't play defense, and he clearly doesn't move without the ball on offense, what makes you guys think he has a good enough understanding of NBA systems to be a coach? Because he runs his mouth at Mike Brown on the sidelines?

Mathius

Last edited by Mathius : 06-02-2008 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 06-02-2008, 10:01 PM   #17
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Default Re: Breaking down the Cavaliers player-by-player (Plain dealer article

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathius
Do you think there's a chance we could trade Z for a 1st rounder that might pan out?

Honestly I'd rather keep him than trade him, especially for a pick. Because if we trade him for a pick you put yourself in 2 tough situations. On one hand you're left with a young, inexperienced player and we really don't have a backup center, so even if he does end up being good we're left without a veteran center for the time being. Secondly, if he DOESN'T work out, we're just stuck. I wouldnt' be willing to trade away our second best offensive player for a POSSIBLE future center. I'd rather keep him and train a new center while Z is still there to hold down the present post.



Quote:
You're not the only one. I liked the kid in that he was a steal for the 2nd round, but it's going to be a few years before he develops into a complete player that should vie for the starting job, and he didn't show near enough improvement this year, and was quite injury prone. I remember reading that he only took one day off this past off season. Clearly that wasn't the best idea, since his body obviously didn't handle it well. If he's going to work all off season, maybe he needs to consider changing up his conditioning regiment.

Right. Gibson is too young to already be an injury risk. I mean hell the kid is younger than I am and i still consider myself a kid lol


Quote:
Doesn't bother me, because his contract is coming up soon. It would be nice if he would mentor a guy like Dwayne Jones and teach him a thing or two, but there's never been any indication that Wallace has the teaching gene in him. There's always a good chance he'll pan out next season too. You have to keep in mind, these 4 guys were jumping in at the trade deadline, so we're talking like 25 games or so to try and fit in?

See that's the thing I honestly haven't seen any signs of Big Ben being a mentor to any young players. Even in Chicago remember he was already having a negative impact on Joakim Noah? When Wallace was laughing after a loss and Noah pointed out that he should be taking things more serious, Wallace played the "STFU Noob" card on him. Seems like if he was the mentor type he'd at least say "okay, you're right" or set a better example.



Quote:
I'm all for keeping him if he doesn't ask an outrageous sum of money. I think a nice 3 year deal in the MLE level area would be good. Right now he's the best guard we have on the roster. I just wish he'd be a bit more consistent. Seems like sometimes he's aggressive in trying to score and it works. Other times he's trying to be aggressive in pushing the ball, and he turns the ball over. He needs to find a nice middle ground. Most guys consider him to be a third guard on the roster, but I think he'd be fine in a championship situation with Lebron and another superstar guard on the roster.

Agree on all points

Quote:
Joe Smith was a very valuable scoring option off the bench this year. I would love to have him come back, again, assuming we could get him cheaply.

Yeah i'm pretty sure he wouldn't cost much to get back. But like i said if we somehow couldn't, i wouldn't really be upset. I'm sure someone else could do what he does


Quote:
Would someone please explain to me why you guys like these two idiots? Is it homerism?

Eric Snow may have been a pretty good post defender for a guard, and he made good decisions as far as not turning the ball over, but that's about it. As point guards go, he's pretty much undesirable, even in his prime. If he had any abilities at all, the 76ers might have done a little better when they went to the Finals.

I realize there are guys coaching who have never played in the NBA and they're doing it well, but when it comes to guys who HAVE played, I think their decision making on the court is a direct indication of how well they understand the game.

And I can't understand why anyone would like Damon Jones for any reason let alone think the guy is suited for coaching. He's arrogant, immature, inappropriate at times even, and just generally has poor class.

He can't play defense, and he clearly doesn't move without the ball on offense, what makes you guys think he has a good enough understanding of NBA systems to be a coach? Because he runs his mouth at Mike Brown on the sidelines?

I think Eric Snow would make a good head coach all around to be honest. The guy really does seem to know the game in my opinion, and everyone he ever played with has raved about how smart he is when it comes to leadership and basketball. Snow's problem has never been that he didn't know what to do in basketball, it's always been that he wasn't physically capable of it. If you could give a guy with a mind like Snow the body of a guy like Steve Francis, they could've been one of the best PG's ever.

Damon Jones on the other hand I would leave as one of the assistant coaches, maybe not even the primary one, but he does seem to have an eye for the game. I don't think he's serious enough about things to really run a team but if you watch the timeouts, it sure as hell isn't Mike Brown calling offensive sets. All the ones that have actually worked have pretty much been D. Jones calling things. Not to mention the fact that he's like LeBron's best friend on the team and he could play a significant role in us keeping him

Quote:
Mathius

I agree. You are Mathius
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Old 06-02-2008, 10:17 PM   #18
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Default Re: Breaking down the Cavaliers player-by-player (Plain dealer article

Quote:
Originally Posted by B-Low
Honestly I'd rather keep him than trade him, especially for a pick. Because if we trade him for a pick you put yourself in 2 tough situations. On one hand you're left with a young, inexperienced player and we really don't have a backup center, so even if he does end up being good we're left without a veteran center for the time being. Secondly, if he DOESN'T work out, we're just stuck. I wouldnt' be willing to trade away our second best offensive player for a POSSIBLE future center. I'd rather keep him and train a new center while Z is still there to hold down the present post.

I'm at a toss up here. As much as I love Z, I couldn't figure out this season if he's lost a step, or if it's just Mike Brown's failure to get him involved in the offense. We literally run zero post ups for him anymore. Almost everything involves him scoring on offensive put backs, free throws, or spot up jump shots.

If we could use his value to bring in a young guy, I would be all for it, provided the juice is worth the squeeze. I know Z wants to stay here, and the classy thing to do would be keep him on the roster 'til he retires, but the business side of me says, get rid of him while he still has value.

In all honesty, with Delonte West and Gibson at point, Lebron at SF, and Wallace at PF, the addition of a superstar SG that could create his own shot gives this team an uncanny resemblance to Jordan's championship squads. The problem being that Wallace = Rodman, when we clearly don't have a Kukoc coming off the bench (unless Wally shows up). Nobody is a fill in for Horace Grant if you look at the earlier title teams. Z is a definite upgrade over Luc Longley, Bill Cartright, Will Purdue, Scott Williams, Bill Wennington, and/or Stacie King.

It frustrates me to no end to know what this team would have been like if we had a decent coach. Seriously, what COULD Phil Jackson do with a team like this. James might actually be even better with a coach like that. I'm not specifically talking about Jackson's coaching skills even, but his abilities to bring in quality assistant coaches, and more specifically, his ability to manage and motivate people.

Quote:
See that's the thing I honestly haven't seen any signs of Big Ben being a mentor to any young players. Even in Chicago remember he was already having a negative impact on Joakim Noah? When Wallace was laughing after a loss and Noah pointed out that he should be taking things more serious, Wallace played the "STFU Noob" card on him. Seems like if he was the mentor type he'd at least say "okay, you're right" or set a better example.

We'll never know what really went on behind closed doors, what was specifically said by Noah, and whether or not Wallace reacted appropriately, but from the latest Noah issues, his appearance on draft night, and the rumors of him getting into it with the coaching staff, I have to think Noah was the one being an a$$. I never liked the guy in college and I find I have nothing but satisfaction watching his career detonate in the pros because of his poor behavior.

Quote:
Yeah i'm pretty sure he wouldn't cost much to get back. But like i said if we somehow couldn't, i wouldn't really be upset. I'm sure someone else could do what he does

I'm sure there are lots of people who can, but unfortunately none of them have come to Cleveland and performed successfully like Smith has. He's already on the roster, he would be a valuable asset to retain.

Quote:
I think Eric Snow would make a good head coach all around to be honest. The guy really does seem to know the game in my opinion, and everyone he ever played with has raved about how smart he is when it comes to leadership and basketball. Snow's problem has never been that he didn't know what to do in basketball, it's always been that he wasn't physically capable of it. If you could give a guy with a mind like Snow the body of a guy like Steve Francis, they could've been one of the best PG's ever.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. All I ever saw in Snow was an underachiever who got by on hustle and benefited from being on teams with no better alternatives.

Quote:
Damon Jones on the other hand I would leave as one of the assistant coaches, maybe not even the primary one, but he does seem to have an eye for the game. I don't think he's serious enough about things to really run a team but if you watch the timeouts, it sure as hell isn't Mike Brown calling offensive sets.

Yeah, but then the Cavs haven't exactly been very successful offensively, have they?

Quote:
All the ones that have actually worked have pretty much been D. Jones calling things.

You can't possibly know this.

Quote:
Not to mention the fact that he's like LeBron's best friend on the team and he could play a significant role in us keeping him

Lebron sure has a lot of "best friends". Darius Miles, Carlos Boozer, Z, Drew Gooden, Daniel Gibson.

Lebron's a lot more intelligent than people give him credit for. If Jones was sent off and we got some better players in here, he wouldn't bat an eyelash.

And personally, I don't find Lebron's relationship with Jones to be a good thing anyways. I can't stand the guy, and until someone on here can give me a good reason why he's a valuable asset to the team, I'm going to continue to point out all his flaws until my fingers ache from typing them.

Mathius
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:26 AM   #19
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Default Re: Breaking down the Cavaliers player-by-player (Plain dealer article

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathius
I'm at a toss up here. As much as I love Z, I couldn't figure out this season if he's lost a step, or if it's just Mike Brown's failure to get him involved in the offense. We literally run zero post ups for him anymore. Almost everything involves him scoring on offensive put backs, free throws, or spot up jump shots.

If we could use his value to bring in a young guy, I would be all for it, provided the juice is worth the squeeze. I know Z wants to stay here, and the classy thing to do would be keep him on the roster 'til he retires, but the business side of me says, get rid of him while he still has value.

In all honesty, with Delonte West and Gibson at point, Lebron at SF, and Wallace at PF, the addition of a superstar SG that could create his own shot gives this team an uncanny resemblance to Jordan's championship squads. The problem being that Wallace = Rodman, when we clearly don't have a Kukoc coming off the bench (unless Wally shows up). Nobody is a fill in for Horace Grant if you look at the earlier title teams. Z is a definite upgrade over Luc Longley, Bill Cartright, Will Purdue, Scott Williams, Bill Wennington, and/or Stacie King.

It frustrates me to no end to know what this team would have been like if we had a decent coach. Seriously, what COULD Phil Jackson do with a team like this. James might actually be even better with a coach like that. I'm not specifically talking about Jackson's coaching skills even, but his abilities to bring in quality assistant coaches, and more specifically, his ability to manage and motivate people.


In addition to the things you mention about Z, it seems like there were long periods of time where he wouldn't be involved in the offensive game plan. he would get hot, and then he would be ignored for a long stretch of time.

I think you keep him. Having a 7'3 center like him who can do some things is a huge advantage that other teams don't have. However, if you are counting on him to be your second best player, then you are in trouble. I just wish that Mike Brown would give him more touches, and preferable, not in that same predictable spot that he shoots from every time. Seeing as how Brown will be back, I'm afraid we are going to see more of the same thing with Z. It's infuriating to watch. At the end of the day, we are going to have a skillful 7'3 center retire who was never fully utilized. I truly believe that.

Mike Brown, in regards to LeBron, isn't smart enough to coach a player like that. LeBron boggles his mind, and he would probably boggle the mind of a lot of coaches. He just doesn't know what he has in a talent like that.

James is getting by on athleticism and his own abilities. The only thing Brown has done for his game is perhaps improve him defensively.
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:44 AM   #20
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Default Re: Breaking down the Cavaliers player-by-player (Plain dealer article

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathius
Would someone please explain to me why you guys like these two idiots? Is it homerism?

Eric Snow may have been a pretty good post defender for a guard, and he made good decisions as far as not turning the ball over, but that's about it. As point guards go, he's pretty much undesirable, even in his prime. If he had any abilities at all, the 76ers might have done a little better when they went to the Finals.

I realize there are guys coaching who have never played in the NBA and they're doing it well, but when it comes to guys who HAVE played, I think their decision making on the court is a direct indication of how well they understand the game.

And I can't understand why anyone would like Damon Jones for any reason let alone think the guy is suited for coaching. He's arrogant, immature, inappropriate at times even, and just generally has poor class.

He can't play defense, and he clearly doesn't move without the ball on offense, what makes you guys think he has a good enough understanding of NBA systems to be a coach? Because he runs his mouth at Mike Brown on the sidelines?

Mathius


I just want to clarify that I don't think that guys like Damon Jones and Eric Snow are the type of players who can lead contending teams. I know it seems like in the past, that I have sung their praises. Don't think I have, but maybe it's come across that way. They certainly aren't worth their money, and their games have a lot of deficiencies in them. However, I think each player, in their own way, was somewhat insturmental to the success of the Cavs in the recent past. They made small contributions here and there. Did they live up to the money that they were being paid? Certainly not. However, I blame the Cavs management for the salaries they paid these guys. Can't blame them for taking the cash. They knew what they were getting with these guys.

Damon Jones could stand to shut up more, I'll give you that. For someone who is a journeyman like he is, he does have a bit of a yapper.
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