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Old 06-27-2008, 09:51 PM   #31
InspiredLebowski
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Default Re: If I'm not mistaken... was David Stern getting 'Boooed' at last night?



If Stern brought back the Stern Stache I'd cheer him. And I think Akeem just got done with his prom.
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Old 06-27-2008, 10:20 PM   #32
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Default Re: If I'm not mistaken... was David Stern getting 'Boooed' at last night?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathius
Yes, please do. 2 and 3, are charity, they don't have much to do with the league being successful, they are an offshoot of the success the league is having, and are nice, but optional.

4 is SERIOUSLY debatable. I personally think that most of the rule changes under Stern's reign have hurt the game, and it's no coincidence that USA basketball is getting worse instead of better.

5 is commendable, but it's not rocket science, it's just a matter of making sure that proper drug testing and policies are in place. The NFL fails because they don't do enough preemptive strikes, and their drug violation policy is stupid. A 1 yr suspension for violating the drug policy, while players in the NBA have been banned for life.

And you're #1 reason? I don't see overseas growth as a positive. First off, the league is already watered down. Travel to overseas to play has proven to hurt the players in terms of fatigue. The logistics of actually having a team overseas is completely irrational, 1/2 of the Canadian franchises failed and had to move, and lastly, I guess you could argue there are some international players who have left their mark on the league, but most of the great ones are products of collegiate scouting, not guys who came directly from the euroleagues to the NBA and actually made an impact.



OK, so you're going to say that all that crap you just said had nothing to do with guys like Bird and Magic coming into their prime as soon as Stern entered the league, and a few guys by the name of Jordan, Pippen, David Robinson, Charles Barkley, and on and on and on?

Is it a coincidence then that when those legends retired, ratings dropped, or that the Finals the last 5 years have dropped in ratings? I haven't gotten the figures from this year's finals, but Stern certainly isn't responsible for the Lakers being handed Gasol, or the Celtics pulling off the perfect storm where they not only had a bunch of young highly coveted players, but just at the right time as well, where guys like Garnett and Allen were already to jump ship to the east after Lebron James success?

Yeah, sounding condescending and contemptuous of my stance makes all your arguments valid. Except for something called reality.

Mathius

you spent all that time basically writing nothing.

So you don't think international growth is good? The NBA will fail if it doesn't grow internationaly. It gets dominated by baseball and the nfl in america and the nhl in Canada. The american economy is crumbling and international growth is going to help the nba have the money to be a force. Otherwise, as basketball becomes more popular in europe, and the european economy continues to get larger, more players will start to go over there.

Even the NFL, is planning on expanding internationally, because thats the next step in growth.

The NBA, thanks to stern, is planning on it, and will probably be the first of the four major organizations to do it. thats a good thing. it means more talent will develop internationally, and basketball as a sport will grow.

He isn't just helping the NBA, he is helping basketball.

Now as far as 1/2 the Canadian teams failing (you mean 1), it has nothing to do with the NBA, and everything to do with the owners. They refuse to let any wealthy Canadians open an NBA franchise. The only reason they let the MLSE, is because they have more money then any NBA owner, and have pull in every major sports organization.

Also, if you knew basketball, you would know Toronto had a franchise before 90 percent of the current teams and it failed also. it has nothing to do with Stern, and everything to do with the owners and hockey.

You wouldn't want basketball internationally played at a high level like soccer? You are insane.

You also mention the viewer ship being down. Down from what? The other records the NBA set under Stern?

the fact is the nba is making more money, has more viewers, more sponsors, and is growing internationally under Stern.

Is there some curoption left? yes, but still far less then other sports leagues, and is being worked on. The nba is the most professional, well behaved and most strict league in all of sports something that happened under stern.
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Old 06-27-2008, 10:49 PM   #33
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Default Re: If I'm not mistaken... was David Stern getting 'Boooed' at last night?

Mathius, you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't like many things Stern has done but his reign pretty much saved the NBA. The Finals used to be run on tape delay prior to Stern Here's an excerpts from an SI article from the '91 about Stern's success in 7 years on the job up to that point. You can find all the specifics about what Stern has accomplished in the 7 page article, which I have also provided a link for:

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...91/2/index.htm

In his seven years as commissioner and, to a certain extent, in the years immediately before he took the job, Stern has reshaped a floundering, financially strapped league into an entity that is the envy of professional sports—an innovative, multifaceted, billion-dollar global marketing and entertainment company whose future literally knows no bounds. "We see ourselves moving into areas that ordinary fans don't associate with us," says Stern. "I've been telling our owners for years that we're becoming a mature industry. What else is there? Publishing, events, licensing, home entertainment—all on a global basis. It's how you conceptualize your corporate goals."

To fully appreciate where the NBA is and where it is headed, we must first look back to where the league was just a decade ago. In the 1980-81 season, 16 of the NBA 's 23 teams lost money. Total attendance was down almost a million from the year before, and teams were playing to an average of only 10,021 fans per game, about 58% of the capacity of their arenas. The worst-run franchise in the league, the Cleveland Cavaliers , lost more than $4 million while selling only 28% of its seats in '80-81.

In the league's New York offices, where commissioner Larry O'Brien had just promoted a young lawyer named David Stern to the post of executive vice-president, there were about 40 employees, including just one person in public relations and three in marketing and broadcasting. There was no entertainment division, no production facilities. The NBA was shunned by Madison Avenue because it was perceived as a league that was drug-infested, too black, and too regional. "If you had 30 minutes with a prospective sponsor," recalls Mills, who spent the 1984-85 season banging in futility on the doors of corporate America , "your first 20 minutes were spent trying to convince him that the players weren't all on drugs."

As the low point of the pre-Stern era, many in the NBA cite the 1980 championship series between the Lakers and the 76ers , during which CBS refused to broadcast the sixth and, as it turned out, final game live. It was shown, tape-delayed, at 11:30 p.m. Eastern time. Others say the league's darkest hour was an '82 article in the Los Angeles Times reporting that 75% of NBA players were on drugs.

"We were in deep yogurt," recalls Richard Bloch, one of the limited partners of the Phoenix Suns . "But David changed the direction of the league. We, the owners, were accustomed to doing business the old-fashioned way. David had a much more progressive outlook. He was just plain smarter."

Business the old-fashioned way was, pretty much, every franchise for itself. "There was more unanimity in the streets of Paris during the French Revolution than there was in an NBA owners' meeting," says one league executive. Free agency had sent salaries spiraling upward, and the question became not whether the league would have to shrink, but how many teams would have to be canned. "In 1982, after dozens of meetings, we came to the conclusion that we were about to lose a half-dozen teams," recalls Granik, who at the time was the NBA 's general counsel. "We actually set up a committee to study how we were going to do that."

Before Stern there was no coordination. Says former Team Services head Bob King , "All the teams were islands unto themselves. What Stern did was take the islands and turn them into a continent."

"A good marketing guy knows that he has to get the product right before marketing it," says Scott Creelman, head of international sales for Spalding Sports Worldwide. "That's what Stern did with basketball. He cleaned up the product first. Only then did he start marketing." "Nobody, including me, envisioned that this young, bright attorney would have such marketing genius," says Pollin, who was on the committee that recommended Stern to succeed O'Brien . "We used to think it was a big deal if we broke even with NBA Properties. David thought that attitude was ridiculous, and he told us so. Then he showed us how to start making money at it."

Under his leadership the league broke its attendance record for seven straight years, beginning in '83-84. That string ended this season, because the Minnesota Timberwolves moved from the Metrodome into the smaller Target Center . Nevertheless, the NBA averaged 15,245 fans per game, 89% of capacity, for '90-91. During Stern's tenure NBA gross annual revenue, which includes gate receipts and TV money but no income from the sale of licensed merchandise, has soared 437%, from $160 million to $700 million. Salaries have shot up by 177%, from an average of $325,000 to $900,000. Network television fees have gone from $22 million per year to $150 million, and cable TV fees from $5.5 million to $68.75 million. The average worth of an NBA franchise, meanwhile, has more than tripled, from $20 million in the early '80s to $65 million today, and the premier franchises—the Bulls , Celtics , Knicks , Lakers and Detroit Pistons—are worth more than $100 million apiece. While the television ratings of all other major sports have fallen in the last decade, the NBA 's numbers are up by 21%.
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Old 06-28-2008, 12:53 AM   #34
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Default Re: If I'm not mistaken... was David Stern getting 'Boooed' at last night?

Stern deserves all the abuse he gets for the way he and Clay Bennett are conspiring to take the Sonics out of Seattle to bum f%#k Oklahoma City.
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Old 06-28-2008, 01:04 AM   #35
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Default Re: If I'm not mistaken... was David Stern getting 'Boooed' at last night?

Hell yeah I would......He banned tights.








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Old 06-28-2008, 01:22 AM   #36
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Default Re: If I'm not mistaken... was David Stern getting 'Boooed' at last night?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trax416
you spent all that time basically writing nothing.

So you don't think international growth is good? The NBA will fail if it doesn't grow internationaly. It gets dominated by baseball and the nfl in america and the nhl in Canada. The american economy is crumbling and international growth is going to help the nba have the money to be a force. Otherwise, as basketball becomes more popular in europe, and the european economy continues to get larger, more players will start to go over there.

Even the NFL, is planning on expanding internationally, because thats the next step in growth.

The NBA, thanks to stern, is planning on it, and will probably be the first of the four major organizations to do it. thats a good thing. it means more talent will develop internationally, and basketball as a sport will grow.

He isn't just helping the NBA, he is helping basketball.

Now as far as 1/2 the Canadian teams failing (you mean 1), it has nothing to do with the NBA, and everything to do with the owners. They refuse to let any wealthy Canadians open an NBA franchise. The only reason they let the MLSE, is because they have more money then any NBA owner, and have pull in every major sports organization.

Also, if you knew basketball, you would know Toronto had a franchise before 90 percent of the current teams and it failed also. it has nothing to do with Stern, and everything to do with the owners and hockey.

You wouldn't want basketball internationally played at a high level like soccer? You are insane.

You also mention the viewer ship being down. Down from what? The other records the NBA set under Stern?

the fact is the nba is making more money, has more viewers, more sponsors, and is growing internationally under Stern.

Is there some curoption left? yes, but still far less then other sports leagues, and is being worked on. The nba is the most professional, well behaved and most strict league in all of sports something that happened under stern.

First off, there's no evidence at all that the NFL has any international growth going on. Jesus, they sent the Dolphins and the Giants to London last year. Nobody thought either team would be worth squat.

The more the NBA grows, the more the talent pool weakens. FACT. There isn't enough basketball talent in this country or probably the world to support what it would take to start having international teams. Not to mention the travel issues. The season would have to be prolonged until it pretty much took all year, and then the players would have no off season, fatigue levels would be up, etc. etc. It's bad for business. Until the day they start making Star Trek like teleporters, it just isn't feasable.

If you want to talk about international marketing, fine, but again, that has very little to do with Stern. All the best international players have come out from college, NOT any NBA teams recruiting them. There are a very few exceptions, like Yao Ming. For the most part, non american's are pretty much busts in the NBA game.

You seem to want to give Stern credit for every success the NBA has had since he came into the league, and that's insane. The 80's and 90's were full of great players that are legends in this game. I bet if you count, over half of the NBA's 50 greatest players were from those 2 decades, NOT before that.

That talent boom is responsible for the rise in NBA ratings, not Stern. When those players retired, the ratings went back down. WHY? Because it had nothing to do with Stern in the first place.

And let me let you in on a little secret, nobody south of Cleveland gives a damn about hockey. You frig'n talk about how great international growth is, and then point out that Canada can't support it because of hockey and football.

You completely ignored everything I wrote to pretty much babble the same crap over and over again. Repeating yourself doesn't make your right either.

Mathius
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Old 06-28-2008, 01:23 AM   #37
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Default Re: If I'm not mistaken... was David Stern getting 'Boooed' at last night?

Quote:
Originally Posted by herschel4heisman
Mathius, you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't like many things Stern has done but his reign pretty much saved the NBA. The Finals used to be run on tape delay prior to Stern Here's an excerpts from an SI article from the '91 about Stern's success in 7 years on the job up to that point. You can find all the specifics about what Stern has accomplished in the 7 page article, which I have also provided a link for:

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...91/2/index.htm

Are you seriously going to come in here and quote some god damn article at me that's 17 years old? Get that $hit out of here.

Mathius
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Old 06-28-2008, 01:59 AM   #38
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Default Re: If I'm not mistaken... was David Stern getting 'Boooed' at last night?

The NBA is the third ranked league in the USA.This despite all the problems of the top two.
MLB has the steroids issues,the slow pace,REALLY outrageous contracts etc
MFL has the same steroids issues,a lot of bad characters(Michael Vick i.e.),spygate etc
Yet both these leagues are far above the NBA in ratings and attendance.Why?
1)Inconsistent(and possibly corrupt) officiating
2)Bad characters(stephen Jackson,Zach Randolph,Stephon Marbury,Isaiah Thomas etc)
3)A concerted effort by the league to try and attract the young audience that alienated many longtime fans
4)Arrogance by Stern in handling problems(for example most believe NBA officiating is biased so instead of addressing this concern he simply waves it off as conspiracy theory)
There are other issues but those are four biggies and Stern for the most part has refused to address these issues head on.Few if any will trust Stern to do what is truly right and until he is replaced and more openess is brought to bear on the inner workings trust even in his replacement will not occur
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:13 AM   #39
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Default Re: If I'm not mistaken... was David Stern getting 'Boooed' at last night?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trax416
1. He has helped turn the game international, and plans on being the first out of the four big pro sports organizations to move overseas.

not necessarily a good thing the league will be alot more watered down and can u imagine how tired players will be, this will disadvantage the NBA not help it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trax416
2. He has helped the community of the cities NBA players play for with gigantic charity events. He also helps places like New Orleans that are suffering.

for every dollar the NBA spends on charity they spend $10 000 promoting how much they have given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trax416
3. He has started huge programs for literacy in America and Canada.
this thing confused me. i didn't know the NBA had to be taking kids to school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trax416
4. He has helped changed the NBA so it fits well with multiple styles of play. By fixing rules.
these multiple styles of play have really just made the NBA suck, would u rather watch dirk nowitzki play all the time because of his new style or would u rather people play the way jordan barkley and magic did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trax416
5. He has cracked down on steroids and trouble makers. Things leagues like the NFL and MLB are struggling with right now.
and this is why Josh Howard can get away with smoking marijuana and not getting caught out until he said something. great drug testing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trax416
Want me to go on?

please don't u really suck at proving ur point
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:16 AM   #40
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Default Re: If I'm not mistaken... was David Stern getting 'Boooed' at last night?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
seen this movie before, so instead of somebody wasting their time so you can pooh pooh everyone's opinons why don't you explain away the massive growth of the NBA under stern's tenure..

explain how he had nothing to do with record TV contracts, the growth of the NBA into an multi billion dollar international enterprise or the fact that franchise values have quadrupled during his time....
explain how having all the games on TV is a bad thing, or how much happier you were when finals games were on tape delay to be shown after the 11 o'clock news

Quote:
Originally Posted by herschel4heisman
Mathius, you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't like many things Stern has done but his reign pretty much saved the NBA. The Finals used to be run on tape delay prior to Stern Here's an excerpts from an SI article from the '91 about Stern's success in 7 years on the job up to that point. You can find all the specifics about what Stern has accomplished in the 7 page article, which I have also provided a link for:

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...91/2/index.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathius
Are you seriously going to come in here and quote some god damn article at me that's 17 years old? Get that $hit out of here.

Mathius

Please explain how an article even 17 years old that covers in depth the time frame we are discussing is irrelavent?

i asked you to explain how you thin stern has done nothing and all you do is respond with the generic bird magic and jordan built the league, but you ignore who brought them to the public eye...

you claim that when they retired the league lost revenue yet you have show nothing to back that up, the only thing that dropped when jordan retired was finals viewership and bulls viewership, the rest of the league still expanded at a steady rate.

i'm not saying bird and the est had nothing to do with the growth of the NBA but it was the NBA league offices that secured the record sized TV deals so we could watch them... it was the NBA that created NBA properties to market the players jerseys...

where was all this when other NBA greats before magic and bird? why did the NBA not grow when you had kareem and wilt battling it out? why did the NBA flounder and go with out TV contracts during the 60's when elgin baylor, bill russell and other greats headline? the NFL and MLB had TV contracts why not the NBA?

no marketing is why it had nothing to do with the players there was nobody in the League office pushing for them, nobody parading the greats of the game...
yes bird and magic were huge for the game, but it was the NBA that brought them to you via their agressive marketing plan...

as for the drop off in the late 90's part of it is jordans retiremnet, add onto the list the strike took it's toll, the spurs becoming a top team has had a slight effect sadly, (but that also proves that sports fans are a fickle group wanting the flash and glamour that magic and bird brought in over solid fundamental basketball) but that can't be blamed on the league or anybody, the spurs are good and their style of play is not well recieved...

to dismiss what stern has done for the league and pass it off as him being in the right place at the right time and riding players coattails is wrong, because it was the NBA that brought the coattails to light

the very fact people argue the players built the NBA during the 80's is proof the NBA marketing plan insituted in the early 80's is a successful plan... there were great players before and nobody took notice

Last edited by gts : 06-28-2008 at 02:37 AM.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:27 AM   #41
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Default Re: If I'm not mistaken... was David Stern getting 'Boooed' at last night?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamba
and this is why Josh Howard can get away with smoking marijuana and not getting caught out until he said something. great drug testing.

Why should they test for that? Weed isn't a performance enhancer. It's not cheating to smoke weed.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:30 AM   #42
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Default Re: If I'm not mistaken... was David Stern getting 'Boooed' at last night?

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Why should they test for that? Weed isn't a performance enhancer. It's not cheating to smoke weed.
so u'd rather them do the pot go play a game fumble the ball heaps of time then ***** about it.

kwame brown must be ur favourite player.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:35 AM   #43
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Default Re: If I'm not mistaken... was David Stern getting 'Boooed' at last night?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamba
and this is why Josh Howard can get away with smoking marijuana and not getting caught out until he said something. great drug testing.

they don't test during the offseason unless the player tests positive during the season...
all howard has to do is stop smoking before thes eason and he's good to go... the NBA has a policy of letting the players keep their personal lives personal when they are not at work
(ie: the offseason)

Last edited by gts : 06-28-2008 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:38 AM   #44
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Default Re: If I'm not mistaken... was David Stern getting 'Boooed' at last night?

Stern's been getting booed for literally more than a decade. Go watch the trophy presentations for the Bulls from '96-'98 and you'll hear it then, too. I'm sure he's only become more unpopular since then.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:41 AM   #45
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Default Re: If I'm not mistaken... was David Stern getting 'Boooed' at last night?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamba
so u'd rather them do the pot go play a game fumble the ball heaps of time then ***** about it.

kwame brown must be ur favourite player.


I can assure you plenty of players in the NBA have more than likley puffed some weed before a game. They are still able to make freethrows, run up and down the court, and throw the ball at the goal. You can't judge what player has smoke weed before a game by watching. If you can, give me a list now. This'll be good.


I'm sure Kwame does not smoke before the game. He just is a little ***** on the court and can't catch to save his life. Besides, he can smoke all he wants now. He'll proably never set foot on an NBA court in game anymore for the rest of career.
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