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Old 08-25-2008, 08:14 AM   #181
Bonafide
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Default Re: Team USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by trc2006
Well, I don't think you two have to argue over this issue that much.

Comparisons are just for media and for overhyped fans, unless you take them easy...

I don't think you should keep on comparing the two guys, they just won the gold together, and they seem to respect each other and like each other. They were together for the whole time after the final buzzer.

Statistics don't always tell the truth. Every single statistic is valid in is own context, but you cannot absolutely compare statistics from different contexts.

If Lakers would have played 2008 Finals against a team like 2006 Dallas, Kobe would have been on top of that ranking... Wade against 2008 Celtics, simply wouldn't even win a single game.

You can rate a player for Points, rebounds or assists per game during a whole season, during the playoffs, but there is no way you find the formula for THE CLUTCHEST PLAYER EVER.

Fourth quarter, gold medal game, the game on the line, Spain within 2. Who do you give the ball to?
The answer is KOBE. And it was Wade who gave him the ball.
Kobe makes a 4 points play and fouls out one of their best players. And the he put his hands on other 10 consecutives points. With points or assists.
That means that EVERYBODY on the team acknowledged that the best thing to do was giving kobe the ball. He turned every ball into points for his team.
That is being clutch.

Hail to Wade, probably the MVP of the tournament, but Wade himself knows that when the ball is hot, Kobe has coldest hands of them all.

Ok first of all I just want to say that last line "When the ball is hot, Kobe has the coldest hands of them all" sounds pretty damn cool, and yes I give props to Kobe for making a very big shot, he had a pretty cold shooting game (which is something that happens more often than his fans would like to admit to) but that 4 point play was just ice. The way he gave the crowd a frozen stare and pressed his finger to his lips hushing the Spanish supporters was pretty cool aswell. Cool things aside though, I had one thing about your post that really struck an off chord with me. You said, "If Lakers would have played 2008 Finals against a team like 2006 Dallas, Kobe would have been on top of that ranking... Wade against 2008 Celtics, simply wouldn't even win a single game." How do you know that? To make an intelligent logically understanding argument to support a statement of that nature would require an advanced use of statistics, and here you are, someone who down plays the value of statistics, making this ludicrous statement. Well I'm no "advanced" user of statistics but I know PER classifies as an advanced statistic, and Wade maintained the greatest PER in finals history to pull off that upset. Kobe's PER has never been all that great, last season was arguably his best season, his MVP season, and Kobe PER was 8th in the league. As for the bit about how Wade won't even win one game against the Celtics, Detroit had one of the best defenses of all time a few years back and they had no answer to Wade in the playoffs until he got injured. I'm not even going to bother elaborating or bringing up the links to support that further because quite frankly I question your intelligence, the magnitude of foolishness within that statement of yours is brain numbing. If I'm wrong and these statements are not foolish, please enlighten me, what are you basing them on on? Otherwise just pretend you never said it, and I'll gladly do the same.
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Old 08-25-2008, 08:27 AM   #182
dd24
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Default Re: Team USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonafide
I grow weary of your constant misconceptions, I said out of Lebron, Kobe, Wade or Paul, who would you want to take to last shot. Jordan was not on the 2008 Olympic team. On another matter, I didn't say this team was all about Wade. I said teams are made up of individuals and expressed my feeling that Wade, as an individual, doesn't always get the recognition he deserves by everybody. Whether it's Wade's style of play, his humble demeanor, the fact his rivals are more marketable or some other ridiculous reason I can't comprehend, he continues to be doubted of his greatness. All I can do is hope Wade stays healthy and proves to the world that he is easily one of the top 30 players of all time, and arguably one of the top 15. If you somehow draw another misconception from my clearly defined argument, I shall conclude that you are an idiot.

So it is a misconception that you posted a link to the greatest finals performances??? A link to an article is clear. Take a look at what you write. When you try to bring up 3 different points in one post that means you are going to get three different answers.

So first, Wade isn't #1 on that list. Jordan is. If you want to talk olympic basketball then don't post links that aren't about olympic basketball. They are different styles of play.

Secondly, I have said all along when the game is on the line Kobe has the killer instinct. He gets the ball.

Third, I have maintained the fact that Wade definately IS one of the greatest players and he had an incredible Olympics. Also he is very marketable and gets all kinds of recognition. Nobody is going to say Wade isn't one of the best in the game right now.

Good luck with your Miami Heat. It's obvious you are a huge fan.
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Old 08-25-2008, 11:05 AM   #183
trc2006
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Default Re: Team USA

Quote:
To make an intelligent logically understanding argument to support a statement of that nature would require an advanced use of statistics, and here you are, someone who down plays the value of statistics, making this ludicrous statement. Well I'm no "advanced" user of statistics but I know PER classifies as an advanced statistic, and Wade maintained the greatest PER in finals history to pull off that upset. Kobe's PER has never been all that great, last season was arguably his best season, his MVP season, and Kobe PER was 8th in the league. As for the bit about how Wade won't even win one game against the Celtics, Detroit had one of the best defenses of all time a few years back and they had no answer to Wade in the playoffs until he got injured. I'm not even going to bother elaborating or bringing up the links to support that further because quite frankly I question your intelligence, the magnitude of foolishness within that statement of yours is brain numbing. If I'm wrong and these statements are not foolish, please enlighten me, what are you basing them on on? Otherwise just pretend you never said it, and I'll gladly do the same.

Wow, chill...

you're just talking basketball... You say I can't tell, because we'll never know: this denies my theory, but yours too. You can't tell Wade is more clutch than Kobe, they never played Finals against the same team, or with the same team. Wade played with Shaq making his pounds count and letting Flash shine, the way he would have never done with Kobe, he wanted to demonstrate to the world that Wade was better than Bryant... As I said, different context, no way you can compare...

As for PER Ratings you're in love with, well it's numbers, it's not THE TRUTH. It tells more or less how a player affects the game. But, if your defense shuts down an opposite player, this shows not in PER. if you force a player to take bad shots, this shows not in PER. Taken from wikipedia:

Quote:
PER largely measures offensive performance. Hollinger freely admits that two of the defensive statistics it incorporates -- blocks and steals -- can produce a distorted picture of a player's value and that PER is not a reliable measure of a player's defensive acumen. For example, Bruce Bowen, widely regarded as one of the best defenders in the NBA (at least through the 2006-07 season), has routinely posted single-digit PERs.

Bear in mind that this rating is not the final, once-and-for-all answer for a player's accomplishments during the season. This is especially true for players such as Bruce Bowen and Trenton Hassell who are defensive specialists but don't get many blocks or steals.

Neither PER nor per-game statistics take into account such intangible elements as competitive drive, leadership, durability, conditioning, or hustle, largely because there is no real way to measure these things, which are often based on opinion and hearsay.

I would add to this, adapted from "There can only be one"

There are so many emotions at the end of a game, and one of them is fear.
Fear that you got so close, and it could all end.
Fear that your opponent may rise above you and make the basket that separetes:
victory
from loss

When the opposite player sees the ball in Kobe's hands they start to fear: "he's going to make it again..." No other player instills this fear.

Fear is not a factor in your PER rating
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Old 08-25-2008, 10:58 PM   #184
dd24
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Default Re: Team USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by trc2006
I would add to this, adapted from "There can only be one"

There are so many emotions at the end of a game, and one of them is fear.
Fear that you got so close, and it could all end.
Fear that your opponent may rise above you and make the basket that separetes:
victory
from loss

When the opposite player sees the ball in Kobe's hands they start to fear: "he's going to make it again..." No other player instills this fear.

Fear is not a factor in your PER rating

Very well said. Fear would be in an opponents eyes when Wade has the ball to but we will never be able to measure how much so it is a great point that you make.
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Old 08-26-2008, 12:37 AM   #185
b.jerk
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Posts: 587
Default Re: Team USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by trc2006
Wow, chill...

you're just talking basketball... You say I can't tell, because we'll never know: this denies my theory, but yours too. You can't tell Wade is more clutch than Kobe, they never played Finals against the same team, or with the same team. Wade played with Shaq making his pounds count and letting Flash shine, the way he would have never done with Kobe, he wanted to demonstrate to the world that Wade was better than Bryant... As I said, different context, no way you can compare...

As for PER Ratings you're in love with, well it's numbers, it's not THE TRUTH. It tells more or less how a player affects the game. But, if your defense shuts down an opposite player, this shows not in PER. if you force a player to take bad shots, this shows not in PER. Taken from wikipedia:



I would add to this, adapted from "There can only be one"

There are so many emotions at the end of a game, and one of them is fear.
Fear that you got so close, and it could all end.
Fear that your opponent may rise above you and make the basket that separetes:
victory
from loss

When the opposite player sees the ball in Kobe's hands they start to fear: "he's going to make it again..." No other player instills this fear.

Fear is not a factor in your PER rating

I get the fear factor if you're opposite Warren Sapp but I don't think there's fear factor in basketball and I know what a fear factor of oh **** I could die is. I can accept there's an oh **** factor, there's nothing I can do to stop Bryant or James from winning the game but the fear factor is a little too much.
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Old 02-03-2011, 07:22 PM   #186
Antalse
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