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Old 07-03-2008, 02:09 AM   #16
kingsley
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Default Re: Raptors Roster Up to date...With Salaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molson
I don;t see why they would start Moon. He was a good fit last year because we needed rebounding and help defense and he gave that to us from the three spot. With Oneal now signed, we don;t have that need any more.

It's safe to assume the ball will find its way in to the post more often than not this year. Moon becomes a huge liability on offense because he can;t spread the floor and whoever is guarding him can cheat to the post because he is not a threat from the outside.

Kapono is a great fit for this type of offense. It will be tough to double Oneal or Bosh when they have the ball on the inside given that parker, kapono and calderon can all shoot. If moon is in that lineup, other teams will be abel to adaot and send some help in the post. Kapano's poor man defesne is also not as much of a liability because of the two bigs protecting the paint.

Moon is simply not a fit for this lineup whereas Kapano is. Can't see how Moon starts over Kapono.

I agree, I like that logic and I think Kapono should get minutes. The thing with Kapono is he is a good set shooter, but he struggles creating his own shot. That being said he can light it up from just about anywhere on the floor.

I think Moon should start because he can rebound, block shots, play in the paint (blow by defenders and finish in the game, and he has a decent shot. The fact that he started all those games last season is a credit to his game. Not only that they actually went away from starting him in the playoffs last year as well as a reduction in his minutes and I think that really hurt them. In the Orlando series, the magic had bigger players in the wing that could take the ball in the paint with ease and settle for short range shots. Moon's defence could have helped out in that regard, and it is a wonder they went away from that.
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Old 07-03-2008, 07:34 AM   #17
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Default Re: Raptors Roster Up to date...With Salaries

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Originally Posted by kingsley
I think Moon should start because he can rebound, block shots, play in the paint (blow by defenders and finish in the game, and he has a decent shot. The fact that he started all those games last season is a credit to his game. Not only that they actually went away from starting him in the playoffs last year as well as a reduction in his minutes and I think that really hurt them. In the Orlando series, the magic had bigger players in the wing that could take the ball in the paint with ease and settle for short range shots. Moon's defence could have helped out in that regard, and it is a wonder they went away from that.

Moon does not blow by his defenders very often ie. drive to the basket. It was well publicized in here and in the media the lack of driving he does to the basket. Mitchell screamed constantly in his ear to take the ball to the basket and give up the outside shot. Moon is afraid of contact.

If Moon's defense was so good how come the guy(s) he was defending in the playoffs scored so many points? Earlier in the season he played better defense but got away from it later. The only thing he does defensively is block shots (usually only after a guy blows by him) and rebound (he uses his athletic ability to out jump guys and not necessarily box out).

The honeymoon is over for Moon. He is not a great shooter. Kapano is a shooter who gives you points and Moon a guy that rebounds the ball and defensively can block shots. Kapano is a smarter defender than Moon but lacks lateral quickness. Moon should be a better on the ball defender since he has the athletic ability.

Neither one of these guys is a clear cut starter.
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Old 07-03-2008, 10:25 AM   #18
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People often mistake being athletic and a good shot blocker as being a good defender.
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Old 07-03-2008, 10:52 AM   #19
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Moon is not a great "man defender" but he is an excellent "help defender". Despite his athleticism, he makes poor decisions on when to press a guy and when to lag back a bit and that hurts him in a man to man defense. However, he is good at reading what the other team is doing off the ball and how to react to protect the basket.

Moon's help defense was necessary last year, but not anymore with Oneal around.

On offense, he never drives by anyone because in my opinion he is not capable of doing so. He is not a good enough jump shooter that defenders have to press up in on him giving him a better shot at driving past them. and to add to it, his ball handling skills are not good at all. In fact, i consider his ability to handle the ball as his biggest weakness. So when you combine defenders playing off of him and his inability to handle the ball, then his only contribution can be shooting or moving without the ball to open up space for himself. Considering his shooting is sub par, he can really only do one thing on an offense focussed around bosh and Oneal.

Combine this with the Raps lack of need for his help defense and i just don;t see how or why he starts. I like Moon though. One of the feel good stories of last year and i like his hustle and think he could be a great spark off the bench but with the retooled starting lineup, he is an awful fit.

This is getting long winded by me, but i can just envision the offense. One of the other team's bigs is gonna have to guard Bosh and the weaker one will guard Oneal or vice versa and that's a disaster for them. If Mitchell is smart he will always post up the guy with the weaker defender on him. this should force teams to eventually send someone in to help and whether its the guy guarding parker, kapono or calderon. One of the shooters will be open with two bigs already down low with a shot at a rebound. Now points can come from the post or the shot.

We still really need a slashing SF or SG. There really isn't anyone capable of beating his man off the dribble to get to the net and with two capable big men down low this could really help put the finishing touches on a complete offense.
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Old 07-03-2008, 10:54 AM   #20
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Holy long post by me
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Old 07-03-2008, 11:09 AM   #21
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it's funny how people forget.

Moon was a walk on and EARNED a spot in the starting line-up. And then played well enough to keep it.

If memory serves Smitch pulled him from the lineup for games 1 and 2 against orlando (which we were destroyed in).
He was then given 33 mins in game 3 which we won and then had his mins cut again.

He lead are team in blocks, steals and was second in rebounding (6pg) very solid for a small forward.
He was also the 4th MOST EFFICIENT PLAYER IN THE NBA. Which means he usually makes good decisions in not turning the ball over and shooting good percentages (though these dipped at the end of the year).

Personally I don't care who starts because it looks like he, Parker, and Kapono will share all duties at 2/3, leaving each with about 32 mins/game. This will put them all in a position to excel minus the fatigue.

I believe Kapono and Moon are our 3's for the forseeable future, while Parker will be replaced mid or next season.
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Old 07-03-2008, 11:54 AM   #22
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Default Re: Raptors Roster Up to date...With Salaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molson
Moon is not a great "man defender" but he is an excellent "help defender"...
Huh? You mixed up almost everything in your post. Bizzaro-reverso world?

Bluerap, a good post until I read this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluerap
...(Moon) was also the 4th MOST EFFICIENT PLAYER IN THE NBA. Which means he usually makes good decisions in not turning the ball over and shooting good percentages (though these dipped at the end of the year)....



8.8 / 13.5 Efficieny ratings, 48.5 shooting %, the entire NBA rates ahead of Moon. What on earth were you thinking? 4th Rookie on nba.com maybe?

Moon is a defender. He's terrible shooter, and his "shot decision making" is particularily painful to those looking for a drive when the lane is open, or dunk instead or his "shots" from 3 feet. Don't get me started on the 3's...
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Old 07-03-2008, 12:20 PM   #23
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Default Re: Raptors Roster Up to date...With Salaries

I would prefer if Moon went to the bench, but the real question is can Sam coach this team? Sam did not have a clue on how to include Kapono in the offense last year. That may be why Moon started all those games.

This year we have a very diferent team. Help defense will be less critical and rebounding should be improved. Does that move Moon to the bench? Moon was a great story last year, but he didn't do what we needed him to do, take it to the basket, instead he would settled for a jump shot!

This year I like the thought of an inside out game, and that means Kapono. His shooting skills will keep the double teams from closing on Bosh and JO. Having said that defense wins.

So who starts depends mostly on how Sam uses JO and Bosh. Will they compliment each other on the defensive side? Does Sam know how to coach two bigs? Will Kapono's offense offset his defensive liabilities?

Sam is the answer, not Moon or Kapono.
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Old 07-03-2008, 12:40 PM   #24
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Default Re: Raptors Roster Up to date...With Salaries

Okay,

Jamario was 4th most effecient player in NBA for most of the season, source yahoo fantasy.
Jose was number 1 and Jamario was number 4. This takes in to account fg%, ft%, 3pt% and TO's. May also way positive stats (blk, stl) vs. negative (TO) not sure how it works, but he was a major fantasy stud in yahoo leagues.
Jamario's numbers dipped quite a bit at the end of the season (fatigue) and his yahoo efficiency was heavily scewed by low TO's.
I'll try and find an old link.
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Old 07-03-2008, 12:44 PM   #25
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Default Re: Raptors Roster Up to date...With Salaries

Thing that bothers me about currrent makeup of our team is that we are just one major injury away from total disaster. Boston tried a super tight lineup and won the prize, but it really was a fluke, for them not to have a major injury of any significance all year. Chances of that happening here are slim and none as Chris, Jermaine, Andrea all have shown a tendency to go down frequently for extended periods. Without Delfino to back them up (played all 82) should Jose go down again (much more likely with extended minutes) this team won't have the answers to recover.
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Old 07-03-2008, 12:57 PM   #26
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Default Re: Raptors Roster Up to date...With Salaries

Good points.

Re: Jamario efficiency
http://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy/nba/...-bigpic_032008

I know it's not the most effective efficiency tracker, but I knew I remembered it from somewhere!

no accounting for percentages.
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Old 07-03-2008, 01:17 PM   #27
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Default Re: Raptors Roster Up to date...With Salaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluerap
Good points.

Re: Jamario efficiency
http://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy/nba/...-bigpic_032008

I know it's not the most effective efficiency tracker, but I knew I remembered it from somewhere!

no accounting for percentages.

That has nothing to do with EFF ratings. That's just an expanded assists to turnover ratio...

Even worse, its a snap shot at the 65 game mark of the season.

That doesn't make Moon a great player.

Very misleading posts there Mr. Fox News!
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Old 07-03-2008, 01:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Old Willy
Huh? You mixed up almost everything in your post. Bizzaro-reverso world?

I'm sorry, when did Jamario show he was a great man to man defender? Where did most of his blocks come from? Where did his steals come from? They all came from help defense not man to man defense. In fact, whenever he was given the assignment of guarding a good SF, he would get creamed.

I'm not sure how else to prove it to you because i know you watch the games as much as i do, so Just youtube "jamario moon blocks". They are mostly on help defense.

I'm not exactly sure what makes you think Moon is a good one on one defender. I can remember countless SF's beating him on the dribble and/or shooting over him midrange.

I haven't forgotten how good Moon looked at times but i will reiterate that he was a perfect fit given the Raptors situation. they were weak on boards. That is one of Moon's strengths but is no longer needed. They were weak on help defense. Moon was there for help defense. that's no longer needed with Oneal. Oneal's acquisition changes the requorements of the SF position.
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Old 07-03-2008, 02:03 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Old Willy
Huh? You mixed up almost everything in your post. Bizzaro-reverso world?

Just on another note, i guess if you think i got everything mixed up then you also think:

Moon is a good one on one defender, but a bad help defender
Moon is a good shooter
Moon is a good ball handler
We won't be playing more of a post up game
We should not feed the ball to our big that has the weaker defender on him
With moon as a starter, it won't be the Sf for the other team will not come to help on defense in the post if Bosh or Oneal is hurting them
We don't need a SF that can slash

I'm assuming these are the things you beleive because they are the reverse of everything i stated in my post.

Last edited by Molson : 07-03-2008 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 07-03-2008, 03:15 PM   #30
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I tend to agree with Molson, a slashing SF is not as important to this team with both Bosch and Jermaine in the paint. Teams are going to load the paint now just to stop those two so there will be too much congestion much of the time to slash into there. It's far more pertinant to have guys like Kapono and Parker who hit the outside shot regularly to stop these teams from allways collapsing down low into our bigs. However the second team needs a slasher as they will often have only one big in the paint as Andrea usually plays a perimeter game. This is where it would have been nice to keep Delfino and have him come off the bench and change the game up a little with his slashing ability.
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