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Old 07-10-2008, 08:19 AM   #16
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Default Re: The Midlevel Exception

Here's an ESPN article with what's left on the FA market

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/column...eAgents-080629

Let's bring back Carlos Arroyo as the backup PG, it worked out well the first time, let's get ready for the sequel. Quinton Ross is also one of the better defensive SG-SF's left. I don't know what he'd go for, or if the Clipps have any interest in keeping him. I imagine he'd take a good chunk of the MLE.

The main problem is that Utah have 13 players under contract next season, and i'm pretty sure they'll re-sign CJ Miles, and they still have to sign Kosta Koufos which will take it up to 15. Unless they release someone like Ronnie Price, Jason Hart or Jarron Collins, someone who's only got 1 year left, and a smallish contract, they won't have the room to sign anyone. I think they'll settle with what they've got.
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:17 AM   #17
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Default Re: The Midlevel Exception

Rumors are still rampant that the Jazz are trying to work a sign and trade with Chicago for Ben Gordon. Not sure who the Jazz are willing to give up for him and who Chicago would be willing to take. Seems like one or more of our wing players would have to be involved if the Jazz were to add yet another SG. Harpring and either Almond or Miles maybe? Or do the Jazz give them AK and the Bulls throw Nocioni in the deal too? Not sure if I like that one, though.

Williams, Gordon, AK, Boozer, Okur with Price, Brewer, Millsap, Korver off the bench is a nice team. Still need size, though.
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Old 07-10-2008, 02:16 PM   #18
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Default Re: The Midlevel Exception

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I hadn't heard about looking at him last year

They were trying to get him last off-season.

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,but the situation is a little different now. We really noticed how much we lack on thet interior last season.

How did they not notice it 2 seasons ago? Don't see the difference? When he became available at the end of last year Jerry said no thanks despite their need and an open roster slot. What has changed in the past few months?Might give him an excuse to sit Collins. He'd hate to have that.

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I hope we go for at least some backup bigman.

They do unfortuantely it's Collins.

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I got the impression the two parties didn't see eye to eye

I never got that impression. He was a good fit here they both just decided to move on. He couldn't shoot but he's shown with the Spurs that he can now hit open jumpers.

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Cuban most definately paid more that anyone else was willing to

Wouldn't be surprised if others offered him mid-level as well.

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Maybe if he improves

At 26 he should especially once Dampier is gone and he gets more PT.

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Quinton Ross is also one of the better defensive SG-SF's left. I don't know what he'd go for, or if the Clipps have any interest in keeping him. I imagine he'd take a good chunk of the MLE.

He's a minimum veteran exception I'd think. They have bigger needs. Already had CJ sitting on the bench.

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i'm pretty sure they'll re-sign CJ Miles

Wouldn't count on it. He showed he could play in the league so don't be surprised if he gets an offer and the Jazz would have a hard time matching any 2 year deal with the contracts coming up next year. Detroit likes him as does Miami. Any team looking for a cheap young guard with lots of upside should be looking his way.

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Unless they release someone like Ronnie Price, Jason Hart or Jarron Collins, someone who's only got 1 year left, and a smallish contract, they won't have the room to sign anyone.

O'Conner has said that there's always sign and trades. Those 3 and Almond(assuming you don't pick up his contract by the start of the season) all have expiring contracts(not to mention CJ) that are always useful no matter how small. Back-up pg's, 3rd pg's, big men and shooters are always in need so they could definitely do something. They should think of a buy out if they have to to fill their needs. Obviously LHM isn't going to do that though.

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I think they'll settle with what they've got.

Sadly, that's the likely scenario.

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Rumors are still rampant that the Jazz are trying to work a sign and trade with Chicago for Ben Gordon. Not sure who the Jazz are willing to give up for him and who Chicago would be willing to take. Seems like one or more of our wing players would have to be involved if the Jazz were to add yet another SG. Harpring and either Almond or Miles maybe? Or do the Jazz give them AK and the Bulls throw Nocioni in the deal too? Not sure if I like that one, though.

Both players would certainly be welcome(and the Bulls have a lot of other talented young guys that they could throw in) but I don't see the Jazz doing anything that big yet. They'll stick with there main guys and to get Gordon or Nocioni you'd have to give some of that up.
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Old 07-10-2008, 02:35 PM   #19
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Default Re: The Midlevel Exception

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...sports/wizards

So much for Dee Brown. Probably the best possible scenario for him as far as the NBA goes. He's not really a pg and Washington doesn't really use a pg. They move the ball around and all their 1,2 and 3's can handle the ball. With Mason gone he could get some time.
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Old 07-10-2008, 04:38 PM   #20
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Default Re: The Midlevel Exception

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Originally Posted by Xiao Yao You
They were trying to get him last off-season.
.
I believe you then.

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How did they not notice it 2 seasons ago? Don't see the difference? When he became available at the end of last year Jerry said no thanks despite their need and an open roster slot. What has changed in the past few months?Might give him an excuse to sit Collins. He'd hate to have that.
2 seasons ago we were the best rebounding team around, we didn't give up half as many points in the paint either. This year, with the exact same (almost) personel, we looked a lot worse inside on defense. Kinda like the same exact team (almost) couldn't win on the road this year. Call it voodoo.

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They do unfortuantely it's Collins.
No, I said go for a big. Collins played a lot less last year, maybe that is why we are worse inside. People like to list him as one of the worst players. Truthfully, he doesn't make mistakes, plays well in a team concept, knows where to be defensively, and uses his 6 fouls very well. For his pay, thats not bad. I would still prefer a true anchor though, but fairly reliable big men like Collins are ok by me.

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Wouldn't be surprised if others offered him mid-level as well.
That was the full mle. Food for thought.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/column...eAgency-080703
------------------------
Will the curse of the midlevel strike again?

Over the past half-decade, the history of players who sign for the full midlevel exception has been an unmitigated disaster. You'd think this would dissuade teams from offering it in all but the most overwhelming bargains, but once the silliness of free-agent season starts, it seem they just can't help themselves.

For instance, the two players to get the full midlevel exception so far this summer are Beno Udrih and DeSagana Diop.

Ugh.

Udrih had a nice run as the Kings' emergency replacement at the point this past season, but that's the whole point: He was seen as a success mainly because the expectations were so low. Sacramento signed him as roster filler and was pleasantly surprised when it turned out he actually could play a little.

That doesn't mean the Kings should pay him the full midlevel for a half-decade, though. Udrih is 26 and a career 43.9 percent shooter. The most similar players at the same age are Vonteego Cummings, Khalid Reeves and Doug Overton, and his projected PER for 2008-09 comes in at 12.99. He's a good backup, but that's about it.

Given the Kings' recent history with their midlevel (coughShareef Abdur-Rahimcough), you'd think they would be a little more reticent to shell out -- especially given Geoff Petrie's rep as one of the game's shrewdest talent evaluators. One has to wonder whether the Maloof brothers' enthusiasm for their own players was a driving force here, and if so, whether it will come back to bite them again -- just as it did when Mike Bibby hit free agency in 2002.

But Udrih might not even be the worst midlevel signing this summer. As of now, that honor goes to Diop, to whom the Mavs offered a five-year deal for the full midlevel a mere four months after happily including him as a throw-in in the Jason Kidd trade with New Jersey. If you're scoring at home, yes, this is a red flag that the Mavs still don't know whether they're coming or going.

At any price, Diop gives little bang for the buck on offense. In 52 games as a Mav this past season, he averaged 3.0 points per game. Ready for the punchline? It set a new career high. And when he was sent to New Jersey, he joined a team that was desperate for interior help, but the Nets played him only 15 minutes a game due to his offensive limitations.

I know, I know, Dallas wants Diop for his defense. But as with Udrih, there's no upside here -- he is 26 and is what he is as a player. The Mavs are going to be paying him until he's in his 30s, even though he lost his job to Erick Dampier a year ago and never came close to getting it back. You can find players like this much cheaper, and the Mavs of all people should know this -- that's exactly what they did when they first signed Diop in the summer of 2005.
------------------

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At 26 he should especially once Dampier is gone and he gets more PT
.
It is a good fit in Dallas. I would have loved him in Utah, but 5 years is a fat contract.

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Wouldn't count on it. He showed he could play in the league so don't be surprised if he gets an offer and the Jazz would have a hard time matching any 2 year deal with the contracts coming up next year. Detroit likes him as does Miami. Any team looking for a cheap young guard with lots of upside should be looking his way.
They should be looking his way. However, CJ said he would prefer to stay in Utah and LHM thinks he is a future all star . If he leaves, I would wish him well, but he has a great chance at staying.

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Both players would certainly be welcome(and the Bulls have a lot of other talented young guys that they could throw in) but I don't see the Jazz doing anything that big yet. They'll stick with there main guys and to get Gordon or Nocioni you'd have to give some of that up.
Nocioni would be great! I don't like the Gordon fit, personally. I hate seeing Deron play the 2. I am pretty satisfied with Brewer and Korver taking 2 quarters each. Wouldn't like to lose Brewer's inside scoring for Gordon's game, nor losing Korver's deep threat for Gordon. He fits better elsewhere imo. The vet pg or defensive anchor are bigger priorities. Speaking of vets, I thought you were all about going younger and hated Utah's moves for vets...what gives?

Last edited by luigi>mario : 07-10-2008 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 07-10-2008, 05:58 PM   #21
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Default Re: The Midlevel Exception

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we looked a lot worse inside on defense

I thought Boozer and Okur had problems defending wo years ago myself.

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Collins played a lot less last year, maybe that is why we are worse inside.

He's played a lot less the past two years.

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People like to list him as one of the worst players.

Cuz he is.

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Truthfully, he doesn't make mistakes, plays well in a team concept, knows where to be defensively, and uses his 6 fouls very well. For his pay, thats not bad.

It wouldn't be bad if he was just insurance at the end of the bench but that's not the case. Either Jerry plays him or they go very small. He made a lot more sense when they had a shot blocker in Tag. But now with Okur and Boozer up front they need more of a defensive presence down low.

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fairly reliable big men like Collins are ok by me

Me too as long as you have other options beside him.

I saw quite a bit of the Kings last year and thought they and Udrih looked pretty good. If not for injuries they certainly could have been in the thick of the playoff race as well. I think Theus did a good job and Udrih, Garcia and Salmons all showed a lot given the chance.

Mid-level for a starting pg is cheap. How good they can be with him as their starter remains to be seen but right now that deal doesn't look bad at all. The Spurs letting him a and Scola get away looks a lot worse. Have to see what happens with Artest but Odom would certainly fill their need at the 4and they have lots of swing guys to fill in for the headcase.

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CJ said he would prefer to stay in Utah

They always do. Backing up Hamilton and Prince would be alot better opportuity for him right now.

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LHM thinks he is a future all star

What does he know?

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he has a great chance at staying

Jazz are hoping that they can get him for the qualifying offer like last year or a one year deal with team options for more but I don't think that will happen. Someone will make them match a 2 or 3 year deal and no matter how much money it is for they'll have a hard time matching cuz of what they will be dealing with next year with guys that actually play every nite.

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Nocioni would be great!

Yes he would and he's one of the rare guys Jerry couldn't help but love.

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I don't like the Gordon fit, personally. I hate seeing Deron play the 2.

Why would Deron play the 2? Gordon is a 2 and if they got him he should be the 6th man. He's one of the great scorers in the league but defensively he doesn't match up well. If he wants to start in the league it would have to be on a team where he could match up with the other teams one at the other end.

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I am pretty satisfied with Brewer and Korver taking 2 quarters each.

Sure.

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Wouldn't like to lose Brewer's inside scoring for Gordon's game, nor losing Korver's deep threat for Gordon.

He's a better offensively player than either by far. Defense is what you'd be losing with Brewer.

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He fits better elsewhere

Yes he would but it depends on what kind of deal it is exactly and who they'd get and who they'd give up and how much they'd have to sign Gordon for before I'd say no way.

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The vet pg or defensive anchor are bigger priorities.

Agreed but maybe you can get that in the deal or in a muly team deal.

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I thought you were all about going younger and hated Utah's moves for vets...what gives?

How much younger can they get? I've always thought that Jerry didn't give young guys enough of a chance. I think Brewer could have helped them as a rookie. But they have plenty of youth. You need vets. Fisher wasn't a great fit but they missed his leadership.
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Old 07-11-2008, 03:54 AM   #22
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Default Re: The Midlevel Exception

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Originally Posted by El Kabong
Let's bring back Carlos Arroyo as the backup PG, it worked out well the first time, let's get ready for the sequel.

I know you're from Australia and want to support your guy, but I absolutely hated Arroyo with a passion, and he's bounced around the leagure for a reason. The guy has (basketball) mental problems and an over-inflated ego, he did good in the summer Olympics and that's the only nice thing I can say about the guy. Deron can play a ton of minutes and Price can give him a short breather, no need for another point, when the other positions are much more in need.

The one thing I like about Ben Gordan is that he can handle the ball, as well as create his own shot off the dribble which is something the Jazz always seem to lack in any position except the point-guard. He's undersized though. It all depends on what his cost is.
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Old 07-11-2008, 03:37 PM   #23
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Default Re: The Midlevel Exception

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Originally Posted by Chalkmaze
I know you're from Australia and want to support your guy, but I absolutely hated Arroyo with a passion, and he's bounced around the leagure for a reason. The guy has (basketball) mental problems and an over-inflated ego, he did good in the summer Olympics and that's the only nice thing I can say about the guy. Deron can play a ton of minutes and Price can give him a short breather, no need for another point, when the other positions are much more in need.

The one thing I like about Ben Gordan is that he can handle the ball, as well as create his own shot off the dribble which is something the Jazz always seem to lack in any position except the point-guard. He's undersized though. It all depends on what his cost is.

I confess, I was sold on Arroyo. He was a piece of the puzzle for our championship run in my head, especially after watching him dismantle the american team by himself with steals, threes, crossovers, and insane thread passes all at prime moments. However, I am happy with Price/Hart, just take away the green flag for them to take every time expiring shot they are on the court for.

As for Gordon, would it be a sign and trade? In any event, I guess having Fish play 2 made me crazy when we matched up on D, and Gordon isn't half the defender that Fish is. I know Williams would ned up guarding the 2 spot with Gordon on the floor, which would take away half of Deron's pressure wear down game on the other team's point. Gordon's offense would be nice, but I am a matchup fanatic.
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:18 PM   #24
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Default Re: The Midlevel Exception

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As for Gordon, would it be a sign and trade?

Would have to be.

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Gordon's offense would be nice, but I am a matchup fanatic.

And Gordon would be a huge match-up problem for the other team.
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Old 07-12-2008, 02:00 PM   #25
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Default Re: The Midlevel Exception

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Originally Posted by Xiao Yao You
And Gordon would be a huge match-up problem for the other team.

Lets acknowledge both sides.
-Gordon has learned how to punish larger guards who try to keep on him.
-Gordon will also get killed trying to stop two guards, who routinely have career games again Utah.

That leaves Utah relying on streaky shooting to overcome the first line of defense against their traditional weak spot being Ben Gordon.
Truthfully, if it is Williams/Gordon, Deron will end up guarding the SGs. And if that isn't enough, like I said earlier, I like Deron in full contact with the opposing pg...keeps the pressure on.
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Old 07-12-2008, 08:22 PM   #26
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Default Re: The Midlevel Exception

And as I've said Gordon should be coming off the bench to be most effective not starting.
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Old 07-14-2008, 10:55 PM   #27
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Default Re: The Midlevel Exception

Brown over price and hart? Are you kidding? Brown was charismatic but Price is great at giving the second string a boost. Hart is definitely overpaid. But Brown? Once Price gets some more confidence we'll be a lot better off and I think the playoffs this year helped. In reality our backup PG plays about 10 minutes a game, and less in games that matter. We definitely need defense, either a big man or someone to stop the t-macs and kobes from going off against us.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:00 PM   #28
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Default Re: The Midlevel Exception

I'm more excited about Price than any backup PG we have had in a long, long time. Potentially the best backup point guard we've had since a rookie John Stockton. Could be to us what Bobby Jackson was to the Kings a few years ago.
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:30 PM   #29
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Default Re: The Midlevel Exception

But until he shows he's that player they need a vet. Houston had a good looking young pg too when they went and traded for Jackson last year.
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Old 07-16-2008, 05:03 PM   #30
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Default Re: The Midlevel Exception

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Originally Posted by Xiao Yao You
But until he shows he's that player they need a vet. Houston had a good looking young pg too when they went and traded for Jackson last year.

That's what Hart is for
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