Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > D-League Forum, Minor League and International Basketball Forum

D-League Forum, Minor League and International Basketball Forum D-League Forum, Minor League and world international basketball forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-29-2008, 11:21 PM   #121
Grinder
.
 
Grinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,507
Default Re: Who Wins? College vs Euro

Quote:
Originally Posted by la bomba
I dont see the similarities.bashing one guy to bashing a whole continent.Plus the guy is totally ignorant.Iran as a recognizable league is bad enough but to say its in europe is plain ignorant.
Anyway the guy deserves no more of my attention.
I see Krstic has also joined a russian team lyubertsy,another middle of the road european team,not euroleague.

Surprising that Nenad would sign with them, I thought he was signing with Dynamo.

Are you based in Spain, la bomba?
Grinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2008, 09:40 AM   #122
la bomba
Local High School Star
 
la bomba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,050
Default Re: Who Wins? College vs Euro

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinder
Surprising that Nenad would sign with them, I thought he was signing with Dynamo.

Are you based in Spain, la bomba?
No.U.k.
Leaving to the middle east.
before that in the med.
in other words all over.
la bomba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2008, 08:58 PM   #123
dd24
College superstar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Who Wins? College vs Euro

I was suprised about Nenad too, but after I thought about it for a second I wasn't anymore. He wasn't going to get a big contract in the NBA and he's actually a very good player. I wanted the Pistons to sign him instead of Kwame.
dd24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2008, 07:47 AM   #124
dd24
College superstar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Who Wins? College vs Euro

Well, this is a little off topic, but we have covered 1000 topics in this post. With that said, this still covers a bit of what we have discussed. It looks like Euroleague teams will be playing NBA teams in the preseason next year.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns

I just wonder if the teams that play each other will play their full roster. Typically, in the NBA preseason starters don't play very much. This could be something that makes it so they play them more to try to get the ratings and revenue they want but it could also be a Euroleague 2nd squad vs. an NBA 2nd squad. Imagine Orlando with no Dwight Howard and Rashard Lewis, or LA with no Kobe or Gasol. It's not the game we would like. Nonetheless, let's hope those teams both play their starters and we can see what happens for real. Imagine LA vs. CSKA..... what a thread we could have then . This could put an end to our discussions.
dd24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2008, 08:19 AM   #125
la bomba
Local High School Star
 
la bomba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,050
Default Re: Who Wins? College vs Euro

Quote:
Originally Posted by dd24
Well, this is a little off topic, but we have covered 1000 topics in this post. With that said, this still covers a bit of what we have discussed. It looks like Euroleague teams will be playing NBA teams in the preseason next year.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns

I just wonder if the teams that play each other will play their full roster. Typically, in the NBA preseason starters don't play very much. This could be something that makes it so they play them more to try to get the ratings and revenue they want but it could also be a Euroleague 2nd squad vs. an NBA 2nd squad. Imagine Orlando with no Dwight Howard and Rashard Lewis, or LA with no Kobe or Gasol. It's not the game we would like. Nonetheless, let's hope those teams both play their starters and we can see what happens for real. Imagine LA vs. CSKA..... what a thread we could have then . This could put an end to our discussions.
It would never end the discussion because one of the teams will not be playing the rules they are accustomed to plus it will still be a friendly pre-season game.I think barca are playing against lakers,raptors and clippers.or atleast 2 of the 3 .
la bomba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2008, 09:43 AM   #126
dd24
College superstar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Who Wins? College vs Euro

Quote:
Originally Posted by la bomba
It would never end the discussion because one of the teams will not be playing the rules they are accustomed to plus it will still be a friendly pre-season game.I think barca are playing against lakers,raptors and clippers.or atleast 2 of the 3 .

We are coming closer and closer to rules that match. This is the one time people will see how Europe fares against the NBA with their rules. We can say how the rules really make a difference. Until now it's speculation. If the Europe clubs win you will have major bragging rights because you would have won the majority of the games no matter what the rules. If you don't, you will see my point about how the rules make a major difference. The only ? mark that I put in there is do both teams play their best players. I said this before. Usually we don't see much of the starters in the preseason here. If the Lakers play and we only see Kobe, Lamar, and Gasol for 15 minutes, that can hardly be considered a game. If those teams play and we see the starters grind it out that will be a great discussion. I think you can see what I am saying now.
dd24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2008, 12:31 PM   #127
berraco
Darko The Ripper
 
berraco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Where flying is risky
Posts: 1,387
Default Re: Who Wins? College vs Euro

Not only the minutes the starters from each team will play, but also that the European teams could have already started the competition and played, I don't know, 5 games... So their shape could be different. And then the travelling from Europe to US or the other way around, with few time to recover from that... There are a lot of factors that will influence the results of these games and that will preclude us to have a good hint about which level European teams have against NBA teams. It is a never ending story and that's why I like it :-)
berraco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2008, 06:37 PM   #128
dd24
College superstar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,992
Default Re: Who Wins? College vs Euro

Quote:
Originally Posted by berraco
Not only the minutes the starters from each team will play, but also that the European teams could have already started the competition and played, I don't know, 5 games... So their shape could be different. And then the travelling from Europe to US or the other way around, with few time to recover from that... There are a lot of factors that will influence the results of these games and that will preclude us to have a good hint about which level European teams have against NBA teams. It is a never ending story and that's why I like it :-)

That's true. I didn't realize the Euroleague season will already have started. The travel issue is huge too. Anyone that has traveled from LA to Russia would know that's a long flight and it certainly jet lags you.
dd24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2008, 10:33 PM   #129
la bomba
Local High School Star
 
la bomba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,050
Default Re: Who Wins? College vs Euro

Quote:
Originally Posted by dd24
That's true. I didn't realize the Euroleague season will already have started. The travel issue is huge too. Anyone that has traveled from LA to Russia would know that's a long flight and it certainly jet lags you.
plus barca wont be killing their starters either as the euroleague and spanish leagues would clearly be their priority and not this money making trip.
As for the rules they will clearly favour the nba teams as its what they are used to and what suits their game.european teams are clearly at a disadvantage there,but you go to someone's house ,you play by their rules.Barca wont win any game,its my prediction,1/the rules,2/the amount of other important games that they will be playing at the time,I am sure the players would rather not play these matches,not at that time of their season anyway.
la bomba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2008, 07:32 PM   #130
b.jerk
High School JV MVP
 
b.jerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 656
Default Re: Who Wins? College vs Euro

There are some bad teams in the euroleague (France and Germany) but is it time to declare the nba and euroleague equivalent leagues. You see guys like Nicolas Batum holding his own in the nba and he couldn't even contribute to a win in the euroleague last year. Rudy Fernandez is doing better than expected and he wasn't even an euroleague player. I can see at least ten teams with the talent to compete in the nba night in night out.
b.jerk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 01:52 PM   #131
Psileas
NBA lottery pick
 
Psileas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Great!
Posts: 5,590
Default Re: Who Wins? College vs Euro

Sorry, I like the Euroleague more than most people over here, but I can't put it at the same level with the NBA. It's a league where more fundamentally sound and team-oriented basketball is played, but there's still a big talent gap, bigger than what seperates the two leagues in team play. To put it in another way, if Euroleague was so powerful, no-one would make such a fuss about players like Childress and Arroyo coming to Europe. In the NBA, they would be considered just 2 trades. In Europe, they're considered among the biggest acquirements of the season.

As for the examples you provided,

-Batum is still only 20, which means that for a few more years, he's bound to improve considerably from season to season (considering he's serious at his job). Last season, he averaged good all-around numbers (11.9/4.8/3.7) with Le Mans. This season, he might be able to be a 15/6/4 player had he stayed there. Instead, he's a 6/3/1 guy in a very young NBA season. I can't say it's safe to draw conclusions.

-Rudy in Spain averaged 20.9/3.0/4.1 in only 28.3 mpg last season. I suppose you're European, so you know that very few players manage to be that productive in leagues like the ACB. Also, he did play in the Euroleague last season and averaged 15.8 ppg and 3.8 rpg in 25.7 mins. His impact in the NBA is pretty significant, but again, it's a young season, not to mention that 16-20 ppg in Europe is significantly more impactful than 13 ppg in the NBA.

As for the title of the thread, I haven't read it all, but the era when the good college teams could compete with or even beat the best European ones is over. There's no way you can take even a team like UNC or Duke, put it in the Euroleague and expect it to do great. Maybe they'd have a better record than teams like Avelino or Nancy or Panionios, but they wouldn't get past the top-16 phase.
Psileas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 04:04 PM   #132
b.jerk
High School JV MVP
 
b.jerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 656
Default Re: Who Wins? College vs Euro

The euroleague being obsessed with the Childress and Arroyo signings is an exaggeration. They were solid players in the nba and solid players in the euroleague. Rudy Fernandez only averaged 15 in the ULEB and Batum dropped in the draft because of questions of his age.

From what I've seen of Olympiacos and Maccabi recently is there's more talent playing on either team than many nba teams. A lot of nba players with incomplete games that look awkward on the court and a lot of nba defenses are too soft to be effective against rotations like Maccabi or Olympiacos. Unless you have officials giving every single class or no call to the nba which does happen in the exhibitions those teams would rack up significant wins in the nba.
b.jerk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 04:29 PM   #133
Psileas
NBA lottery pick
 
Psileas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Great!
Posts: 5,590
Default Re: Who Wins? College vs Euro

Quote:
The euroleague being obsessed with the Childress and Arroyo signings is an exaggeration. They were solid players in the nba and solid players in the euroleague. Rudy Fernandez only averaged 15 in the ULEB and Batum dropped in the draft because of questions of his age.

There's a difference between what we call "solid" in the NBA and "solid" in the Euroleague. In the Euroleague, where rich teams like the ones mentioned can drag a lot of high-profile players and everyone gets his chances to play and contribute, even the best players only look solid. But, had there been a Euroleague All Star Game, most of these "solid" players would either participate or be strong candidates. In the NBA, the same guys would have no chance to participate and only maybe Childress would be a (very weak) candidate.
I already mentioned Rudy in the Euroleague. How many better players than him were there? Asking most Europeans to name Europe's 10 best players, most would mention Rudy somewhere. In the NBA, he'll be lucky if he breaks top-100 this season.

Quote:
From what I've seen of Olympiacos and Maccabi recently is there's more talent playing on either team than many nba teams. A lot of nba players with incomplete games that look awkward on the court and a lot of nba defenses are too soft to be effective against rotations like Maccabi or Olympiacos. Unless you have officials giving every single class or no call to the nba which does happen in the exhibitions those teams would rack up significant wins in the nba.

You mentioned the reason they seem awkward: Different rules. NBAers don't play the same defense, because they are simply not allowed to, because they have to face better competition and because the opponents have a wider room to operate.
I've seen a few of the Euroleague teams play against NBA teams with NBA rules, and the same players who seem so versatile in Europe, looked like stiffs there. For example, I saw Panathinaikos face the Houston Rockets and the Spurs last October. Their best defender, Diamantidis (Euroleague DPOY 4 times in a row) looked completely lost, his opponents drove by him whenever they wanted (so did the opponents of his teammates), the perimeter guys couldn't exacute the offensive plays that they were so used to, because their opponents rarely bothered to double them and leave open men to shoot and their big guys pretty quickly became Yao's and Duncan's dinner.
Psileas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 06:59 PM   #134
b.jerk
High School JV MVP
 
b.jerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 656
Default Re: Who Wins? College vs Euro

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psileas
There's a difference between what we call "solid" in the NBA and "solid" in the Euroleague. In the Euroleague, where rich teams like the ones mentioned can drag a lot of high-profile players and everyone gets his chances to play and contribute, even the best players only look solid. But, had there been a Euroleague All Star Game, most of these "solid" players would either participate or be strong candidates. In the NBA, the same guys would have no chance to participate and only maybe Childress would be a (very weak) candidate.
I already mentioned Rudy in the Euroleague. How many better players than him were there? Asking most Europeans to name Europe's 10 best players, most would mention Rudy somewhere. In the NBA, he'll be lucky if he breaks top-100 this season.



You mentioned the reason they seem awkward: Different rules. NBAers don't play the same defense, because they are simply not allowed to, because they have to face better competition and because the opponents have a wider room to operate.
I've seen a few of the Euroleague teams play against NBA teams with NBA rules, and the same players who seem so versatile in Europe, looked like stiffs there. For example, I saw Panathinaikos face the Houston Rockets and the Spurs last October. Their best defender, Diamantidis (Euroleague DPOY 4 times in a row) looked completely lost, his opponents drove by him whenever they wanted (so did the opponents of his teammates), the perimeter guys couldn't exacute the offensive plays that they were so used to, because their opponents rarely bothered to double them and leave open men to shoot and their big guys pretty quickly became Yao's and Duncan's dinner.

A lot of this anti-euroleague and pro-nba is partisan. In terms of overall quality Rudy Fernandez isn't missed. Half of the nba is poor quality basketball and the better euroleague teams could do more than hold their own against nba competition. Only a partisan wouldn't admit the quality deficiencies of the nba.
b.jerk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 07:32 PM   #135
Psileas
NBA lottery pick
 
Psileas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Great!
Posts: 5,590
Default Re: Who Wins? College vs Euro

Quote:
A lot of this anti-euroleague and pro-nba is partisan. In terms of overall quality Rudy Fernandez isn't missed. Half of the nba is poor quality basketball and the better euroleague teams could do more than hold their own against nba competition. Only a partisan wouldn't admit the quality deficiencies of the nba.

How is it "partisan" to state what most people agree on?
I'm not anti-euroleague or pro-nba more than you are the opposite, because you're proving nothing by just stating that half the NBA is of low quality (if this is so, then I guess it includes a lot of Europeans, since most Europeans, including a lot of Frenchmen and Serbs, are not able to play "top 50%" roles on their teams). Ask even European experts or journalists and there won't be more than a handle of probable anti-Americans to insist that the Euroleague can actually compete with the NBA in terms of quality. If I was wrong, Europeans wouldn't fare like crazy any time they beat an NBA team. Instead, they should be like "OK, we beat them, so what? They were not really supposed to beat us, anyway".

On Rudy, just check the lists of the best Europeans. A lot of people have Rudy in their lists.
I already recognised the deficiencies of the NBA, but I can't turn a blind eye to the deficiencies of the Euroleague as well, and the most serious deficiency is the clearly less talent. They are simply not talented enough. Sorry if you can't see that, but I've never ever seen the top Euroleague players doing consistantly what the top NBA players do. If Euroleague players were as talented, they'd be able to dominate the NBA equally easily, and they don't. Even the few Europeans who manage to put comparable numbers for their NBA teams (like Gasol) still don't dominate equally, because European scores are smaller and games shorter, meaning that if you score 20 in the NBA you may contribute 20% of your team's points, but if you score 20 in Europe, you'll contribute 25-30% of your team's points.
Psileas is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:21 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy