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Old 07-13-2008, 02:30 AM   #1
johndeeregreen
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Default Generation Kill

Excellent book, and the miniseries starts tomorrow. Any of you guys read the book or plan on watching the series?

The book is a nice glimpse into what's really happening in Iraq from the ground level. I hope the show will be much of the same.
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Old 07-13-2008, 06:57 AM   #2
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Default Re: Generation Kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
Excellent book, and the miniseries starts tomorrow. Any of you guys read the book or plan on watching the series?

The book is a nice glimpse into what's really happening in Iraq from the ground level. I hope the show will be much of the same.



http://coinside.blogspot.com/2006/05...-rebuttal.html

and

http://commentaryongenerationkill.blogspot.com/

Quote:

In documenting a few events, which I related to Evan in Ad Diwaniyah after the campaign, he used quotes out of context to build on the theme for his book. He picked favorites, and used particular events to reinforce story lines. He decided Sergeants and below were okay, while senior Staff NCOs were almost universally discounted.

Wright is full of crap and played up all the usual stereotypes of incompetent officers, indiscriminate killing etc that will now taint civilian perception for years.

Now we've got two books and a miniseries about a unit that hardly saw combat compared to some of the other battalions during OIF

A real documentary, made by actual Marines in combat. SHows what is REALLY HAPPENING IN IRAQ right now. Specifically AL Anbar province, the most dangerous province in Iraq. You won't see this in CNN or ABC. I wonder why?

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC_p7...dethewire.com/
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d69k...eature=related

About the Media, THE REAL TRUTH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqFhE...eature=related

http://outsidethewire.com/

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Old 07-13-2008, 07:36 AM   #3
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Default Re: Generation Kill

Doubt I'll watch it, they should've made a movie instead. I hate miniseries cause I'll almost always miss an episode and then lose interest.
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Old 07-13-2008, 03:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: Generation Kill

Quote:
Wright is full of crap and played up all the usual stereotypes of incompetent officers, indiscriminate killing etc that will now taint civilian perception for years.
Why does the unit that he wrote about, including the platoon CO, Lieutenant Nate Fick (read "One Bullet Away," if you're really interested, but then again you probably think he's a liar too), agree with what he wrote then? Of course the guys that were portrayed negatively won't like it. That doesn't mean sh*t. Find me some quotes from the actual grunts who say it's garbage, and maybe I'll take you seriously. Did I say it's a reflection of what every American goes through over there? No. It's going to be different for each unit. What the book does unearth, however, is the truth about what being a soldier in Iraq is like.

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Old 07-13-2008, 03:59 PM   #5
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Default Re: Generation Kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
Why does the unit that he wrote about, including the platoon CO, Lieutenant Nate Fick (read "One Bullet Away," if you're really interested, but then again you probably think he's a liar too), agree with what he wrote then? Of course the guys that were portrayed negatively won't like it. That doesn't mean sh*t. Find me some quotes from the actual grunts who say it's garbage, and maybe I'll take you seriously. Did I say it's a reflection of what every American goes through over there? No. It's going to be different for each unit. What the book does unearth, however, is the truth about what being a soldier in Iraq is like.

Did you even read what this guy wrote and yeah he WAS there

http://commentaryongenerationkill.blogspot.com/

Quote:
In the book, when Sgt Colbert’s Marines were engaged, Evan describes mortar shells coming in like rain; while in this situation, there were supposedly none. There was the same sporadic mortar fire. We were taking incoming. The FA-18 FAC(A) saw mortars and I cleared them to engage. Evan chooses to portray a “Marines kill indiscriminately” theme and it is wrong....No one celebrates civilian casualties. At the time of the strike, they did not know civilians had been spotted either.

Quote:
If I can attest that in three occasions Evan embellished, or misrepresented, events as I related them, the reader can fairly question how many other events in the book are exaggerated or distorted. Evan told me he writes to portray the “gritty, Lance Corporal view of war.” His writing has impact, and evokes a sensory, visceral response. A good war book has to have bloody combat and all those stereotypical characters we see in war movies. He provides them, but at significant cost to accuracy.
In entertaining us with the acerbic, irreverent, and not always well-informed commentary of a few Marines, Evan also limits the reader’s perspective. There was a whole lot more of the war going on all around him, and Evan did not temper the emotional outbursts of those young Marines with perspectives from around the battalion that may give the reader a more complete picture of 1st Recon Battalion. Read and enjoy, but do not think you are reading a complete story.
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Old 07-13-2008, 04:00 PM   #6
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Default Re: Generation Kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
Why does the unit that he wrote about, including the platoon CO, Lieutenant Nate Fick (read "One Bullet Away," if you're really interested, but then again you probably think he's a liar too), agree with what he wrote then? Of course the guys that were portrayed negatively won't like it. That doesn't mean sh*t. Find me some quotes from the actual grunts who say it's garbage, and maybe I'll take you seriously. Did I say it's a reflection of what every American goes through over there? No. It's going to be different for each unit. What the book does unearth, however, is the truth about what being a soldier in Iraq is like.

With alot of embelishment from the author
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Old 07-13-2008, 04:06 PM   #7
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Default Re: Generation Kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogaloo
With alot of embelishment from the author
I don't understand why the links you post are more credible or accurate than the platoon agreeing with what Wright wrote. How does that make sense? Because one guy (who was portrayed negatively) dissents, the book is crap? Whereas when guys like Colbert and Fick support what Wright wrote, it doesn't mean anything?

You're not connecting all the dots here.
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Old 07-13-2008, 04:08 PM   #8
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Default Re: Generation Kill

I'm going to watch it. Embellishment and misrepresentations and all.
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Old 07-13-2008, 06:34 PM   #9
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Default Re: Generation Kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
I don't understand why the links you post are more credible or accurate than the platoon agreeing with what Wright wrote. How does that make sense? Because one guy (who was portrayed negatively) dissents, the book is crap? Whereas when guys like Colbert and Fick support what Wright wrote, it doesn't mean anything?

You're not connecting all the dots here.

Did you even read the second link?
The FAC guy Michael Shoup wasn't even portryed negatively in the book. Now why the **** is he saying not all the author wrote is authentic?

You can say the book is entertaining, but to say its the TRUTH of what really happened with the Recon Bt. then you must be naiive.

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Old 07-13-2008, 07:03 PM   #10
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Default Re: Generation Kill

The naive sentiment in this thread is you acting like the book is a total fabrication based on the word of a couple guys, when on the other side of the scale are people like Nate Fick. Again, you conveniently ignore my original words, which included "glimpse" - not certain if you're familiar with that term, but last I checked it's far from all-encompassing. I have nowhere stated that this is, 100%, how it is. I wasn't there. Neither were you. What it does do is give an idea of what the war is like from the ground level, which is exactly what I said, and if you want to argue that point, we're finished here, because it's not like Mr. Wright just made up imaginary conversations and facts. The book absolutely does give an idea of what being a low-level grunt is like. It's viewed through their eyes. It's not the entire picture of what happened there. The book would be 10,000 pages long if he covered every single angle to make it perfectly objective and fair to all parties involved. I just don't get why you are positive Major Shoup and Casey Kasem are right and everybody else, you know, that was there and all, seem to agree with it, are wrong.
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Old 07-13-2008, 07:34 PM   #11
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Default Re: Generation Kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndegergreen
because it's not like Mr. Wright just made up imaginary conversations and facts.

Umm yeah thats what the FAC guy who gave him qoutes just said.

Quote:
I met Evan Wright before the war started. He was pleasant and engaging, and was surprised I had read his previous Rolling Stone article from when he was imbedded with an Army platoon in Afghanistan

Quote:
I spent about three hours with Evan talking through the war. I kept a notebook/diary that had notes from close air support missions (air strikes), as well as a day to day account of our travels. In retrospect, I was na´ve. In one case, I spoke for another person when I should not have done so. That being said, I was happy to help Evan fill in events, and offer a broader perspective on battalion and division operations.

Quote:
He was smiling and standing with one arm behind the gate, as if he were hiding something. I thought it odd that he was standing there in plain sight in the middle of a gun battle. He was on the left side of the road, and I was sitting on the right side of the truck. Had he been on my side of the truck I would have shot him as I recognized the uniform and he was clearly holding something behind a gate in the middle of a firefight. He was not an innocent bystander. I never told Evan I saw anyone shoot the man...Evan embellishes the event to say I saw the man killed, and uses a double negative to infer it was not justified.

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Old 07-13-2008, 08:11 PM   #12
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Default Re: Generation Kill

Nowhere in what you just posted does the guy say that Wright completely fabricated anything. He said he helped give Mr. Wright information on events he hadn't been present at.

Aside from that, just answer this: If the book is so fulla sh*t, why aren't guys like Colbert, Trombley, Person, Espera, Gunny Wynn, Reyes, Fick etc. etc. speaking out against it? Answer that one for me. Sergeant Kocher says, "This is the real story about the real guys." Guess he's a liar too.

You keep deftly avoiding my queries regarding WHY you can only find two dissidents about the book while a great majority support it? Doesn't make sense. Nobody's saying it's 100% accurate. I'm saying that it shows what it's like to be at the ground level for some of these guys.

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Old 07-13-2008, 08:30 PM   #13
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Default Re: Generation Kill

I'll be watching. Hope its good. HBO has a nice rep with good tv shows. Same guys who produced HBO TheWire is doing this. I'm gonna check the OnDemand stuff to see previews and clips of characters.
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Old 07-13-2008, 09:04 PM   #14
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Default Re: Generation Kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
Nowhere in what you just posted does the guy say that Wright completely fabricated anything. He said he helped give Mr. Wright information on events he hadn't been present at.

Aside from that, just answer this: If the book is so fulla sh*t, why aren't guys like Colbert, Trombley, Person, Espera, Gunny Wynn, Reyes, Fick etc. etc. speaking out against it? Answer that one for me. Sergeant Kocher says, "This is the real story about the real guys." Guess he's a liar too.

You keep deftly avoiding my queries regarding WHY you can only find two dissidents about the book while a great majority support it? Doesn't make sense. Nobody's saying it's 100% accurate. I'm saying that it shows what it's like to be at the ground level for some of these guys.

You cant read? Ill give you some ***** to ponder becasue you are either to lazy to read or just cant.
Quote:
I never told Evan I saw anyone shoot the man...Evan embellishes the event to say I saw the man killed, and uses a double negative to infer it was not justified.

here are some of the Maj. rebuttal of what was in the book along w/ the page number of the events in question.

Quote:
p207. The ‘entire battalion’ was not pinned down. I was at the front of the column with 3d Platoon, Charlie Company, at the time.

Quote:
p200. In my opinion, there is a lot of embellishment in this section. I give full credit to Marines performing under fire, and allow for differing perceptions. But I read about a lot more mortar fire than occurred.

Quote:
p215. Instead of a technical glitch, I recall we were out of range of the DASC(A), an airborne command post that pushes aircraft out to ground units. We could still talk on the artillery radio nets, so it could not have been too dramatic.

Quote:
p256...The buildings along the riverfront had 20 foot craters in the foundations – that level of destruction can only be caused by 1000 pound bombs, not 100 pound artillery shells that break up into submunitions. Also, the damage in the town was largely confined to the buildings adjacent to the bridge, not the wholesale destruction Evan infers in the book.

Quote:
p299. Evan gets carried away here. We had jets and helos flying in all directions trying to locate mortar positions and recon our route of advance. He implies a wholesale destruction of anything in our path. When we could locate enemy vehicles and positions, we used close air support to destroy them. Evan’s flair for the dramatic furthers his narrative, but is unwarranted.


Quote:
p339. I hate to write this section because I have to defend one Marine at the expense of another. The watch officer was a recon Marine and an experienced, former infantry company commander. He did not intend for anyone to mark the minefield at night. Since convoys were traveling that road, the intent was to toss red and yellow chemlights next to the portion of road adjacent to the minefield so convoys would know not to stop there. Engineers would return in the morning to properly mark it. He conducted a face to face brief with the platoon commander and Gunnery Sergeant, specifically ordering them to stay on the paved road. They did not.



I guess these were not a fabrication or over dramatization. Read the whole article. I'm not saying it gives the reader an Idea about the ground battle. Im saying the author embelished and made some ***** up to make the book a good read. Non-military authors are always going to dramatise their stuff as much as possible, inflate figures on mortars/pounds of explosive dropped, overdue enemy reports and confusion on Intel. Take it with a grain of salt. I mean the book makes it look like Marine Officers from in the ground are all incompetent while the lower ranks are all ok. No wonder the dudes you listed have no problem with the book.

Quote:
I am forced to conclude that Evan’s portrayal of the intensity of combat, and the leadership, was not accurate.
In documenting a few events, which I related to Evan in Ad Diwaniyah after the campaign, he used quotes out of context to build on the theme for his book. He picked favorites, and used particular events to reinforce story lines. He decided Sergeants and below were okay, while senior Staff NCOs were almost universally discounted
.

Quote:
Evan deserves full credit for sticking with the battalion and documenting what he sees as the ‘gritty, Lance Corporal’s view of war.’ There is tremendous value in that perspective. I acknowledge that perceptions define an individual’s reality, but that individual reality is not the whole truth. In a situation as chaotic and stressful as combat, the truth is a complex animal.
Evan’s sins are borne of ignorance, inexperience, and lack of perspective. I do not expect Lance Corporals and Lieutenants to be experienced or possess broad perspective either, but journalists should attempt to overcome those shortcomings, not revel in them.

Last edited by Boogaloo : 07-13-2008 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 07-13-2008, 10:12 PM   #15
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Default Re: Generation Kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogaloo


http://coinside.blogspot.com/2006/05...-rebuttal.html

and

http://commentaryongenerationkill.blogspot.com/



Wright is full of crap and played up all the usual stereotypes of incompetent officers, indiscriminate killing etc that will now taint civilian perception for years.

Now we've got two books and a miniseries about a unit that hardly saw combat compared to some of the other battalions during OIF

A real documentary, made by actual Marines in combat. SHows what is REALLY HAPPENING IN IRAQ right now. Specifically AL Anbar province, the most dangerous province in Iraq. You won't see this in CNN or ABC. I wonder why?

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC_p7...dethewire.com/
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d69k...eature=related

About the Media, THE REAL TRUTH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqFhE...eature=related

http://outsidethewire.com/

boogaloo you're very pro-israel so i don't think there would be any way you would ever be against the war.

why should we listen to someone with a predetermined oppinion?
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