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Old 08-29-2006, 05:10 PM   #46
Joey Zaza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCL
first of all, i'm not sure if it's even worthwhile to respond to someone who needs wikipedia to talk about basketball.

I used Wilkepedia as source to give an overview of what he did at each team. I could just type my unsupported opinions, but what good is that. Its just my word against others. Now its my word and a source against others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCL
but the offense he ran with the warriors made sense. he cancelled the bigs, practically eliminated a bit inside game unless you consider tyrone hill to bring run tmc to the table.

Yes it made sense...doesn't prove that he is flexible with his approach

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Originally Posted by DCL
at new york, he just didn't get along with his players.

Good thing you didn't rely on a source, because it sounds so much more intelligent just coming off the top of your head.

They didn't get along because he asked them to do things they weren't good at. That's in-flexibility by everyone.

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Originally Posted by DCL
in dallas, you make it sound like it's nelson's fault that he had a very talented team that mark cuban paid for. like i said, how else would you had coached that team? look at the pieces. motion offense was logical.

There seems to be a reading comprehension problem here. I'm not saying that Nelson is bad coach - he's a good one. The trade for dirk was part of Nelson's dream of a shooting big...and it worked for them. That's great.

I'm just saying he has a system that he implements wherever he goes. He is not flexibe. He asks his players to be flexible, but he is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCL
an nba coach letting his players focus on scoring and not play much defense is far from rigid.

No. An NBA coach running the same system on 4 different teams over 40 years is rigid. A flexible coach would occassionally run a different system. A flexible coach is a guy like Adelman. The WCF Sac teams didn't play like his WCF Port teams and this new Sac team doesn't really play like the old one. Adelman changes for his talent.

A rigid coach is P.Jax. Its the triangle...no matter what. Though the triangle does allow for improvisation - as all NBA offensive systems do - he is running that triangle no matter the players.

Nelson is a rigid coach. He is using shooters. He is running the motion. He is using sa point forward. Big men are shooting, Everyone is running

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCL
i think you're just mad at him because he screwed up the knicks and you're a van gundy worshipper

How could I be mad a Nelson? He had an offense that he used successfully for 20 years. It was foolish to think that it would work in NY without a commitment to changing the roster. Management should have known that.

I am a JVG fan, but I think like this, if Nelson were flexible and able to successfuly acheive a middle-ground with the NY players, JVG never would have gotten his chance. So I am grateful to Nelson for his inflexibility.
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Old 08-29-2006, 05:12 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by XxNeXuSxX
Have you missed the last 10 years of Don Nelson's coaching career? He is incredible with utilizing talent on a team. He is the coach that can get any team with decent talent to get clicking on offense and playing together. Idiotic to compare him to Isiah.


And Larry Brown hasn't? His tenure there really paid off.

Quote:
1) They should have never fired Musselman


Ain't it the truth. After Phil left, I was really, really hoping that the Lakers would pick him up. I wanted to shoot myself in the head(but not really)when they decided on Rudy T.

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Old 08-29-2006, 05:33 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Zaza
I used Wilkepedia as source to give an overview of what he did at each team. I could just type my unsupported opinions, but what good is that. Its just my word against others. Now its my word and a source against others.

you don't need wikipedia references. even if you wanted support, you could had picked something else, wikipedia is the lowest form of references out there. you would had made more ground without even referencing it. nonetheless, the references you provided were incoherent. (probably because you relied on wikipedia.)

you keep on claiming that he had players who were asked to do everything.

everything? is defense part of everything? last time i checked, defense was a big part of basketball, but nelson isn't rigid enough to enforce that to every team.

also, look at the team at milwaukee. craig hodges? he did everything? he was just a shooter. again, nelson wasn't a rigid coach that tried to convert an outside shooter into something he wasn't. he MAXIMIZED hodges' talents, and hodges sure was a great shooter.

same with golden state. this is like the third or fourth time i'm asking you this and you never respond to it - HOW ELSE WOULD YOU HAD RAN THAT OFFENSE? nelson had three significant scorers, all a bit undersized and small, but that didn't concern him because he was willing to run small ball. it would had been prety STUBBORN of him if he forced his team to play any other way like big ball because then he wouldn't had been utilizing his players. do you think it would had been wise to forcefully convert chris mullin into a defensive stopper??

i really think your biggest beef with nellie was his time in new york. he was there for only a short period, and he was really experiementing with everything. maybe you're blaming him for failing to bring the knicks players together and having a winning a season, so you're spoiling all of his other achievements.

but in dallas, again, yes, it was motion offense, BUT HOW ELSE WOULD YOU HAD RAN THAT OFFENSE?????? look at the pieces of the team. if you had freaking dirk, nash, and finley, to *NOT* run a motion offense would had been extremely stubborn and rigid.

same with this generation's warrirors. recent past coaches have been forcing too many stupid ideas... like dumb things like asking dunleavy to bring up the ball to slow sh!t down, or having baron davis play miles away from the ball or asking troy murphy to camp out 25-30 feet away from the basket. those are just players being badly utilized in the worse way because coaches have been to stubborn to let players just play the game that they're naturally made for. nelson is not a rigid coach like that, and he'll open them up.

but you want to know who's a rigid stubborn coach? your man van gundy.

Last edited by DCL : 08-29-2006 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 08-29-2006, 05:52 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by DCL
same with golden state. this is the third or fourth time i'm asking you this- HOW ELSE WOULD YOU HAD RAN THAT OFFENSE? nelson had three significant scorers, all a bit undersized and small, but that didn't concern him because he was willing to run small ball. it would had been prety STUBBORN of him if he forced his team to play any other way like big ball because then he wouldn't had been utilizing his players.

I've answered your questions but you are a poor reader. He ran it fine and successfully. His system fit very well in 3 of his 4 stops. He's a good coach. He just runs the same system everywhere he goes. That's rigid.

Despite your ALL CAPS and constant rambling, you only keep saying that he was right for runnig the same system everywhere he went. OK. Still good coach. Uses same system. Why does he need to be flexible? He isn't. He uses the same system.

In NY his rigidity was most apparent because he was not allowed ot get the players he needed to make it work. Still, not flexible.

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if you had freaking dirk, nash, and finley, to *NOT* run a motion offense would had been extremely stubborn and rigid.

You may not understand what the terms stubborn and rigid mean. Stubborn doesn't just mean defensivetask-master, it means that you run the team the way you've run every team. Your system works and you'll stick to it.

If JVG went to Dallas and ran his half-court system, that would have been stubborn, because his system doesn't fit there. For Nelson to go to Dallas and bring in players that fit into his system and then run his system, doesn't make him flexible, makes him a good GM and coach.

..and vice-versa, if Nelson went ot SA and started asking Duncan to shoot 3's (which he did with Ewing) that's stubborn, but Pop asking Dirk to play in the pain and block shots would also be stubborn.

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nelson is not a rigid coach like that, and he'll open them up.

How do we know that? Maybe Nelson will see Davis, Richardson and Dunleavy and think triangle works best for them. But something tells me and DCL, that he'll run the same system he's been running for 40 years. DCL and I agree that it'll yield results.

I think he'll run it because he always runs the same system. DCL thinks he'll use it because for te 4th time in 5 teams it magically fits that talent best.

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but you want to know who's a rigid stubborn coach? your man van gundy.

I like stubborn and rigid coaches. So what. I haven't ciriticzed Nelson yet.
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Old 08-29-2006, 06:07 PM   #50
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nelson favoring a motion offense isn't a sign that he's rigid. you have to look at the personell. look at those warriors. look at those mavs. it's just efficient to play that style. you telling me dallas should had slowed things down and tried to beat opponents by employing some smothering defensive schemes? it's just not happening unless the coach was stubborn about it.

also, in all of nelson's teams, he's never had a dominating big man. well, dirk is big, but he's not traditional big. he had patrick ewing, but that guy fell in love of his jumper more than his post moves. maybe if ewing was more dominating in the paint, nelson would had been more inspired to use him in that fashion. ewing was still a 20-10 guy under nelson's watch though. but you look at all the other teams, the primary scorers were small, so of course small ball and run and gun was the way to go.

and i don't really understand your criticism that nelly must have 2 shooters?!? what competitve basketball team doesn't have shooters? that's not nelly ball. that's just smart ball. even detroit, a defensive specialist team, has rip hamilton and chauncey billups to light it up from outside. you won't win too many nba games without shooters.


Quote:
How do we know that? Maybe Nelson will see Davis, Richardson and Dunleavy and think triangle works best for them. But something tells me and DCL, that he'll run the same system he's been running for 40 years. DCL and I agree that it'll yield results.

there's really no doubt in my mind that nelson will run a motion offense in golden state. but look at the players. they're young, athletic, and can run. you stick to efficiency. with guys like baron davis and jason richardson, of course, you run and gun it. better than what they're doing now... like asking dunleavy to walk down the court and chop like 15 second off the clock before forcing a stupid pass to adonal foyle, who either commits a turn over or tosses up a brick while troy murphy stands out 25 feet away staring at an impossible offensive rebound with davis or richardson throwing their hands up in the air asking wtf.
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Old 08-29-2006, 06:12 PM   #51
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All I can say is "Its about time". No disrespect to coach Mike Montogomery but he was doing the Golden State Warriors no good. Nelli is the right man for the job. He can utilize the Richardson/Davis backcourt and has proven himself before.
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Old 08-29-2006, 06:14 PM   #52
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Warriors are going to be interesting to watch this year.
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Old 08-29-2006, 06:30 PM   #53
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look at those mavs. it's just efficient to play that style.

I don't believe for one second that Nelson maximized the personnel he had in Dallas. He clearly underutilized Nash. Perhaps understandable because Nash had a pretty horrible lockout season, but Nash was known early on in his career as a dynamic, creative point guard. Nelson took a lot of that away. Rather than a motion offense which actually ended up in a lot of isolation plays and jumpshots, he should have let Nash run the team as a traditional PG, like D'Antoni allows him to. But hey, Nash was so good even as a sidekick I can't blame Nelson too much.

One thing for sure is that he really just does not give a rat's ass about defense. Even D'Antoni has tried quite a bit to improve his team's defense. Nelson never even pretended trying. Offense was never the problem there, defense was, and any idiot could see it. Yet he kept trying to win with as many iso scorers as he could get, going so far as adding Tawn and Toine, which was actually a step backwards. If that's not rigid I don't know what is.

And if he runs his motion offense in Oakland, they will suck hard at it, because there are no shooters at all on that team. Their biggest problem is already that they take too many ill-advised jumpers. Nobody on that team except maybe Dunleavy has any real desire to pass to others. I would not be surprised if they actually had a worse record next season.
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Old 08-29-2006, 06:47 PM   #54
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Running out of energy and patience in this argument. I have written quite a bit on how Nelson is a rigid coach because he always uses the same offense and approach everywhere he goes.

To everyone who wants to tell me that Nelson is a flexible coach who tailors his system to the players he has...I want proof. Not "Well, it was the best system!"

Actual proof that he changed his approach based on the talent he was handed. Maybe the system he ran in Dall differed from GS and I was insensitive to it. Maybe over his 10 yrs in GS he radically changed his offense. He got Webber in there somewhere, did he start running stuff in the post for him?

Proof. Not ALL CAPS not hypothesis. Something supportable, that I can touch, telling me that he is flexible - not that he runs an open system, - but that he is flexible in the system he runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCL
he had patrick ewing, but that guy fell in love of his jumper more than his post moves. maybe if ewing was more dominating in the paint, nelson would had been more inspired to use him in that fashion. ewing was still a 20-10 guy under nelson's watch though.

Must be addressed. Just ignorant. Ewing's "jumpers" were all in the paint. Ewing set up in the post. at that time, he'd take maybe 3 catch-and-shoot jumpers from the top of the key a game. Even those he'd generally have a foot in.

Also Nellie took Ewing out of the paint on defense. Say what you want about the jumper, but dude protected the paint on D...

...but Nelson totally acclimated to NY's talent. not at all rigid.

Last edited by Joey Zaza : 08-29-2006 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 08-29-2006, 06:54 PM   #55
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The Bucks were a team known for their defense. They were one of the top defensive teams in the league. The Mavs and GS were some of the best offensive teams in the league. If that's not flexible, what is?

Nellie coaches according to his personnel. Nellie said you couldn't win running your team through old Ewing in a conventioinal offense.. and Van Gundy proved him right.
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Old 08-29-2006, 07:05 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by FabCasablancas
The Bucks were a team known for their defense. They were one of the top defensive teams in the league. The Mavs and GS were some of the best offensive teams in the league. If that's not flexible, what is?

So the Bucks were a team known for their defense and your proof of that is because you say so. Interesting method of proving your point.

Bunch of damned hacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FabCasablancas
Nellie coaches according to his personnel. Nellie said you couldn't win running your team through old Ewing in a conventioinal offense.. and Van Gundy proved him right

Right by winning games after Nelson left and taking the Knicks - with Ewing at the helm - to the Finals, where Don has never been.

How did he coach to his personnel in NY again?

C'mon proof. c'mon hacks. Lets have it.
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Old 08-29-2006, 07:12 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Joey Zaza
Running out of energy and patience in this argument. I have written quite a bit on how Nelson is a rigid coach because he always uses the same offense and approach everywhere he goes.


just by reading your posts, i can tell you *never* watched nelly coach golden state. he's one of the more flexible coaches to let his players play the way they're more fit for. you're the kind to seek proof from something like wikipedia!? lol. i don't need to pull things from wikipedia. information is received from actually *watching* the game. when he had webber, the team had post game. did this question even needed to be asked?? obviously, you never watched any of it. but of course,you couldn't have known because it wasn't written in wikipedia, the authortiative source of historical basketball references. right.

Quote:
Not "Well, it was the best system!"

okay, this is just really tiring. i keep on asking you what were better systems for teams like the mavs or those warriors, and simply cannot provide an answer.

just answer these simple questions.

how else would you had played mullin? how else would you had let dirk play? or mitch richmond or hardaway? ?

did you want mullin to be a defensive guy and post player or rebounder?? what's your beef with the system if that's the most efficient one to use?


Quote:
Must be addressed. Just ignorant. Ewing's "jumpers" were all in the paint. Ewing set up in the post. at that time, he'd take maybe 3 catch-and-shoot jumpers from the top of the key a game. Even those he'd generally have a foot in.

now you're really talking nonsense. it is extremely ignorant to say something like "oh, he'd only take 3 catch and shoot jumpers from the of the key."

only?? ha ha. like taking that many AT THE TOP OF THE KEY wasn't bad already. the guy was a 7ft center. when he was drafted #1 out of georgetown, he was supposed to be one of those dominating big guys to change the game like kareem. but no, he became a guy who occassionally camped out at the top of the key to shoot.

but it was more than three, with the rest still 15 feet and beyond and in vicinity. ewing was just a soft center that never lived up to the hype and fell in love with the soft jump shot. you knew it. nelson knew it. chicago knew it. we all knew it. because he just took that many.

Last edited by DCL : 08-29-2006 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 08-29-2006, 07:14 PM   #58
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Don't get so excited man.. haha

Do you hate Nellie that much? Did Ewing win a ring with anyone? How can you knock Nellie for not thinking he could win running through Ewing? No one else could.

The Bucks WERE a defensive team. Sidney Moncreif was a stellar defender. They were a top ranked defensive tema in the league. They won with D. Ewing might have got to the Finals.. but that isn't a ring.. Nellie was playing to win. Nellie is knocked because he never won a championship. He never had the tools to win a championship. The only true great player Nellie ever had was Dirk.. and he had to practically build Dirk out of nothing. And he barely had him in his prime for a couple minutes.. and he didn't have the pieces to put around Dirk to win. The Mavs still can't get a bigman to play with dirk.

Nellie is a victim of his own success.. any other coach who doesn't get lucky and get great players to coach with, as long as Nellie, gets tossed out of the league never to return. But Nellie was able to be successful with what he had. It was like Nellie was building racecars to run in the Indianapolis 500 out of scrap..
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Old 08-29-2006, 07:15 PM   #59
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Warrioirs are going to kick ass because:

Dunleavy Jr. = Chris Mullin (both white shooters! OMG! OMG!)

Richardson = Mitch Richmond (both shooting guards around 20ppg! OMG! OMG!)

Davis = Tim Hardaway (both chucks with mental issues! OMG! OMG!)

:rollingeyes:

Reality check nimrods:

Warriors = 34 wins.
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Old 08-29-2006, 07:25 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCL
just by reading your posts, i can tell you *never* watched nelly coach golden state. he's one of the more flexible coaches to let his playerrs adjust to their abilities. you're the kind to seek proof from something like wikipedia.

Dude I just want something other than your brain. He let his players adjust to their abilities. Did he ever adjust to his player's abilities. The facthat he let his players freelance is every coaches job. Even JVG and Brown allow players to "do their thing"...tis gotta be built into any system.

but did Mr. Flex ever adjust his coaching to suit his player's abilities. did he adjust his coaching for the playoff run?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCL
this is really tiring. i keep on asking you what were better systems for teams like the mavs or those warriors, and simply cannot provide an answer.

There is no answer. Nelson runs his system very well. If I'm Nelson, I make adjustments when my Dallas team cannot advance in the playoffs. I don't know what the adjustment is, I'm not a coahc - but I make adjustments.

Avery is a flexible coach. He makes adjustments ot personnel and matchups all the time. Nelson is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCL
now you're really talking nonsense. it is extremely ignorant to say something like "oh, he'd only take 3 catch and shoot jumpers from the of the key."

like taking that many AT THE TOP OF THE KEY wasn't bad already. the guy was a 7ft center.

but it was more than three, with the rest still 15 feet and beyond and in vicinity. ewing was just a soft center that fell in love with the jump shot. you knew it. nelson knew. chicago knew it. we all knew it. because he just took that many.

Its untrue. He would take a bunch of shots. Some were jumpers, most were runners of the wrong foot, some were fadaways. He wasn't a real big dunk guy, but he'd get some baseline, some fadeaways. I think most shots were 5-10 feet out. If its the dunks you are upset about, if Ewing could get to the basket more, he would have dunked more - but he faced doubleteams and didn't have the power of Shaq.

I'm don't think he took alot of shots from 15 feet and out. The baseline shots were more like 10 feet.

Ewing wasn't soft. He wasn't clutch. He played hard. He played a ton of D and didn't shy from contact. He had 0 offense coming out of college, but developed an offensive game for the pros.

I'm not sure what Nelson knew. He knew he wanted to change the way NY played. I think he thought more highly of Ewing's range than was appropriate and proably overrated Mason a little.

He certainly didn't adjust ot the team's talent.
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