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Old 07-26-2008, 11:41 PM   #31
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Default Re: Is our guard situation a problem?

Our backcourt is severely lacking in talent compared to many other teams', but AP is a solid guy who can really shoot and defends well, and Calderon is a very good all-around PG (except for defence), great shooter and floor leader.

The backups look dysmal on paper, especially since they are both new to the Raptors. Roko Ukic is a complete unknown, a skinny Euro kid whose game might not translate to the NBA at all. Hassan Adams is also young and apparently a good athlete and defender, but not much of an offensive threat, sounds kind of like a guard version of Moon. We really need to look into getting a 5th guard, but we literally have no money to pay anyone without going over the luxury tax. God damn it, why does Jermaine O'Neal make so much Goddam money? I mean, a lot of our relative success in the past two seasons has depended on different backcourt players stepping up on different nights. One night it would be TJ, one night Jose, one night it would be AP, one night it would be Delfino. We have to hope that Adams and especially Ukic can score the ball. And Kapono and Bargs have to step up on a more consistent basis, I seriously think that us winning will depend heavily on the scoring output of those two, they both are going to need to be in double digits most nights.

Bosh and JO should combine for around 40 pts most nights (hopefully more!).

Jose and AP, lets say 25, Jamario might get 10. That's 75 points. Not going to win most nights. Can Kapono and Bargs average 25 points between them? That's a bigger if than it should be.

Whatever, hopefully this **** works.
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Old 07-27-2008, 01:40 AM   #32
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Default Re: Is our guard situation a problem?

I think that's expected since we lost Delfino and TJ. I am not worried at all. JO and CB4 are our go to guys. They will be double teamed so often that Calderon, AP, and Kapono are going to get really good open looks. In the paint was our weakness last year, no longer a problem.

Perimeter shooting is always a dangerous game. It's too inconsistent even if you have the best shooters. The inside game is a lot more important.
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Old 07-27-2008, 06:24 AM   #33
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Default Re: Is our guard situation a problem?

I just hate hearing how good AP is defensively where that's the position we got killed at the last two years. Defense is a team game I know but please please please don't say Parker was good defensively. You can say he shoots well, is good team mate and an all around nice guy, these are true statements, but good defensively who has he been able to stop?
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Old 07-27-2008, 07:07 AM   #34
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Default Re: Is our guard situation a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by b4ball
I just hate hearing how good AP is defensively where that's the position we got killed at the last two years. Defense is a team game I know but please please please don't say Parker was good defensively. You can say he shoots well, is good team mate and an all around nice guy, these are true statements, but good defensively who has he been able to stop?

Very very true. Parker is slowing down fast.

Did we improve our front court enough to make up for the hit we will take in the back court? That will be key....or did we just shift the weakness to another area. You need a creator, especially at the end of close games. That almost always goes to guards and not to a post player.
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Old 07-27-2008, 10:15 AM   #35
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Default Re: Is our guard situation a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapsFan
Very very true. Parker is slowing down fast.

Did we improve our front court enough to make up for the hit we will take in the back court? That will be key....or did we just shift the weakness to another area. You need a creator, especially at the end of close games. That almost always goes to guards and not to a post player.

I think in shot clock situations, and at the end of close games, jose stepped up big in many occassions (the game we beat boston for example)...

he has the ability to beat opponent pg's one on one.. and manages to dish to other players when help comes in the paint


anyways, yes we did just shift the weakness to another area.. but lacking great guard plays can be compensated by a good frontcourt for sure... I would take a the combo of good frontcourt poor backcourt OVER poor frontcourt good backcourt any day, or else we'll just be the a former sixers (with allen iverson), or new york knicks, or a yao-less rocket, or a gasol-less lakers... these teams have great backcourt by lacks frontcourt...
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Old 07-27-2008, 12:28 PM   #36
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Default Re: Is our guard situation a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekman
I think in shot clock situations, and at the end of close games, jose stepped up big in many occassions (the game we beat boston for example)...

he has the ability to beat opponent pg's one on one.. and manages to dish to other players when help comes in the paint


anyways, yes we did just shift the weakness to another area.. but lacking great guard plays can be compensated by a good frontcourt for sure... I would take a the combo of good frontcourt poor backcourt OVER poor frontcourt good backcourt any day, or else we'll just be the a former sixers (with allen iverson), or new york knicks, or a yao-less rocket, or a gasol-less lakers... these teams have great backcourt by lacks frontcourt...
EXACTLY! I'm glad someone else see's this. Lets say you take the Spurs for example since they've won the most recently. Would you like their chances better with Duncan, Anthony Parker, and Jose Calderon.. or with Manu, Tony Parker and... lets say Bargnani?

How about Boston, do you think that same team they had last year minus KG would've won a championship?

HOw about the Lakers, do they have 3 championships if you take away Shaq and add an average center? I mean I do see the point of guards usually taking over near the end of games but bigs lay the foundation. and If we have JO and Bosh inside, all they have to do is take it in, get doubled, and then dish it out to one of our shooters, AP, Kapono, Calderon.
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Old 07-27-2008, 12:48 PM   #37
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Default Re: Is our guard situation a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
Again proving you're an idiot. You know how to copy and paste a definition but you don't know anything about application of the word. Get back to me when you pass 5th grade. Until then, i'm done with you.

LOL, im pretty sure the application is right, but if u still dont get it its ok, i sympathize

..and i skipped grade 5 (so dont diss when ur wrong or dont know the proper info)

BUT i will agree with ur assessment about laker without shaq, or boston without KG, my only problem is that what if u take the bulls in the 90s, with pippen and jordan, like i know they had horace grant (for some time) and rodman, but i think with those two alone and sub in lesser talents inside, they still could have won some championships because they had been beating teams with better inside games (a la Ewing, and Alonzo in their primes)
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Old 07-27-2008, 01:28 PM   #38
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Default Re: Is our guard situation a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownBaller
LOL, im pretty sure the application is right, but if u still dont get it its ok, i sympathize

..and i skipped grade 5 (so dont diss when ur wrong or dont know the proper info)

BUT i will agree with ur assessment about laker without shaq, or boston without KG, my only problem is that what if u take the bulls in the 90s, with pippen and jordan, like i know they had horace grant (for some time) and rodman, but i think with those two alone and sub in lesser talents inside, they still could have won some championships because they had been beating teams with better inside games (a la Ewing, and Alonzo in their primes)

I agree, I didn't say it's never been done, but what I did say to RapsFan is that in the past decade (basically from the time Jordan left and on), a dominant big or at least a very good big combination has been a large part of what it takes to win it all.
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Old 07-27-2008, 02:54 PM   #39
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Default Re: Is our guard situation a problem?

But, all of those teams mentioned all has SICK guard play. The Bulls teams proved it can be done with marginal bigs who know their role. The same can't be said for teams with marginal guards is all I am saying. In fact, I would rather have solid, if unspectacular front court of guys who play their roles very well, and star perimiter play. However saying all this.....it's not like the bigs can be scrubs. No team can win with scrubs playing major roles, except those Bulls teams.

There have been lots and lots of teams with loaded front courts that didn't get over the hump...because their guard play wasn't at that top level.
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Old 07-27-2008, 03:11 PM   #40
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Default Re: Is our guard situation a problem?

Parker is good for me, very selective shooter, will give you 10-12 ppg, and is a good defender..

the only problem is Kapono, Adams, MAYBE even Joey as his backup..

We need one more move involving around Kapono or Joey
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Old 07-27-2008, 03:45 PM   #41
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Default Re: Is our guard situation a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
I agree, I didn't say it's never been done, but what I did say to RapsFan is that in the past decade (basically from the time Jordan left and on), a dominant big or at least a very good big combination has been a large part of what it takes to win it all.

u bring up a good point, hence why i was never a fan of all the "the centre position is becoming extinct"

what my concern is that this JO Bosh thing doest turn out to be like the amare shaq duo in phoenix, they needed more inside presence they went and got shaq on the downside, now JO is younger, but he has been chronically injured, but i have more confidence in the raps pairing because i feel bosh is a better all round pf than amare but i find the situations a little similar, and almost same cost too!
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Old 07-27-2008, 04:56 PM   #42
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Default Re: Is our guard situation a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapsFan
But, all of those teams mentioned all has SICK guard play. The Bulls teams proved it can be done with marginal bigs who know their role. The same can't be said for teams with marginal guards is all I am saying. In fact, I would rather have solid, if unspectacular front court of guys who play their roles very well, and star perimiter play. However saying all this.....it's not like the bigs can be scrubs. No team can win with scrubs playing major roles, except those Bulls teams.

There have been lots and lots of teams with loaded front courts that didn't get over the hump...because their guard play wasn't at that top level.
You're dodging my question. Would you give those same teams with SICK guard play the same chances to win a championship with a lesser front court?

edit: I see you've answered it somewhat.. But let me go back to my Celtics example..

Kobe/Fisher/Farmar/Vujacic >>> Posey/R.Allen/House/Cassell/T.Allen IMO.. Yes Ray Allen is an All-star and had a great series but for the most part his role was as a spot up shooter (which is what AP does for us). House is not a ball handler and was pretty much a catch and shoot guy as well. Cassell and Tony Allen were good in spurts but nothing consistent either. James Posey was a very good role player, a good defender and a great spot up shooter, but not a creator like you've been saying we need.

I think that the true difference maker was KG on Gasol/Odom and whatever other bigs they threw at him. No he wasn't the main guy down the stretch but he was a driving force on that championship team.

Last edited by bokes15 : 07-27-2008 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 07-27-2008, 06:44 PM   #43
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Default Re: Is our guard situation a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
You're dodging my question. Would you give those same teams with SICK guard play the same chances to win a championship with a lesser front court?

edit: I see you've answered it somewhat.. But let me go back to my Celtics example..

Kobe/Fisher/Farmar/Vujacic >>> Posey/R.Allen/House/Cassell/T.Allen IMO.. Yes Ray Allen is an All-star and had a great series but for the most part his role was as a spot up shooter (which is what AP does for us). House is not a ball handler and was pretty much a catch and shoot guy as well. Cassell and Tony Allen were good in spurts but nothing consistent either. James Posey was a very good role player, a good defender and a great spot up shooter, but not a creator like you've been saying we need.

I think that the true difference maker was KG on Gasol/Odom and whatever other bigs they threw at him. No he wasn't the main guy down the stretch but he was a driving force on that championship team.


You completely missed out on double P??

And Although a lot of championships have been won with strong guard play, some have been won with good big men...Like the Rockets The Dream & Spurs Twin Towers first couple of championships, the Boston Celtics of the Bird era...

And we would all love to have a great shooting guard or small forward! But lets see what happens before the trade deadline when teams become sellers and we are buying! we do have a pick to give away if needed...Hopefully the bobcats suck again this year and we can make a run at Jason Richardson on the Deadline...
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Old 07-27-2008, 07:46 PM   #44
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Default Re: Is our guard situation a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
You're dodging my question. Would you give those same teams with SICK guard play the same chances to win a championship with a lesser front court?

edit: I see you've answered it somewhat.. But let me go back to my Celtics example..

Kobe/Fisher/Farmar/Vujacic >>> Posey/R.Allen/House/Cassell/T.Allen IMO.. Yes Ray Allen is an All-star and had a great series but for the most part his role was as a spot up shooter (which is what AP does for us). House is not a ball handler and was pretty much a catch and shoot guy as well. Cassell and Tony Allen were good in spurts but nothing consistent either. James Posey was a very good role player, a good defender and a great spot up shooter, but not a creator like you've been saying we need.

I think that the true difference maker was KG on Gasol/Odom and whatever other bigs they threw at him. No he wasn't the main guy down the stretch but he was a driving force on that championship team.
I think that you need a balance between perimeter and interior play in order to go deep into the playoffs.

That means perimeter scoring, perimeter defense, interior scoring, interior defense. Perimeter scoring should be good for us, Calderon, Parker, Kapono (and hopefully Ukic!!!) are all snipers, and Moon and apparently Adams are good dunkers, Calderon should be able to set them up. Also, I know he seems like a hopeless case, but maybe, just maybe, Joey Graham's strong play in summer league is an indicator that he has finally woken up and realized that he's kind of a beast.

The frontcourt is obviously very strong, Bosh and JO should be able to score around 40 points between them almost every night, and they should rebound reasonably well. As for defense, both of them are capable, Bosh handles quicker bigs, JO handles stronger bigs, and both should be able to block a decent number of shots. Hump should be able to come in and rebound as usual, and Bargs hopefully will improve and be more consistent now that there won't be quite as much pressure on him. And then there's Nathan Jawai. It will be very interesting to see what this monstrosity can do, I'm not expecting much at this point. And Joey can certainly slide up to the PF spot on occasion.

The main problem the Raptors are going to have this season is perimeter defense, they will get absolutely chewed by star guards and small forwards. Like, if we face the Cavs in the first round? Lebron CHEWS us. Face the Wizards? Arenas chews us! The Celtics? Pierce will chew us. Philly? Actually I'm not overly worried about the Andres, I'm far more worried about Mr. Brand, but I figure Jo or Bosh should be able to keep him in check.... but still Iggy might chew us good! ATL? JJ, Bibby and (hopefully no longer) Josh Smith? Ugh. Detroit? Rip and Chauncey. Milwaukee? Redd and RJ. Da Bulls? Deng, Gordon, Rose. Hopefully AP and Moon can hold it down somewhat, and Calderon can make up for his defensive deficiencies.
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Old 07-27-2008, 07:53 PM   #45
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Default Re: Is our guard situation a problem?

HbB - Pierce is a forward.

A.M.G - I agree. Read back through my posts, I said it's a combination. But what we are disputing is that RapsFan said he would prefer us to be strong at the guard position and weak/average at the F/C than to be weak/average at the guard position and strong at the F/C to which I strongly disagree.
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