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Old 08-04-2008, 01:35 PM   #16
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Default Re: Hoffa wasn't really that bad if you think about it

Personally its not hoffa.. its bobcock.. the only good thing i think I remeber is when he got Calderon..

But not getting iggy hurts.. lol
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Old 08-04-2008, 02:22 PM   #17
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Default Re: Hoffa wasn't really that bad if you think about it

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Originally Posted by Tool
I'm just glad Colangelo managed to swap him for Humphries.

highway robbery

also i just dont see what the raptors saw in babcock, he did one of the worse jobs ever in the shortest amount of time...VC trade, draft failures.. im glad we actually started caring and got a quality GM..but i'm still bitter about the VC trade
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Old 08-04-2008, 02:29 PM   #18
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Default Re: Hoffa wasn't really that bad if you think about it

Honestly, the drafting of Araujo was one of the worst picks in history, and the Vince Carter trade was one of the worst trades in history, not just recent history either. I don't like to dwell on the past, but since it's being discussed I might as well throw my two cents in. How does Rob Babcock sleep at night?
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Old 08-04-2008, 05:09 PM   #19
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Default Re: Hoffa wasn't really that bad if you think about it

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Originally Posted by Chamberlain
Honestly, the drafting of Araujo was one of the worst picks in history, and the Vince Carter trade was one of the worst trades in history, not just recent history either. I don't like to dwell on the past, but since it's being discussed I might as well throw my two cents in. How does Rob Babcock sleep at night?

What is so incredible is that Babcock is freakin' Kevin McHale's top assistant!!!! Talk about the blind leading the blind!
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Old 08-04-2008, 05:12 PM   #20
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Default Re: Hoffa wasn't really that bad if you think about it

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How does Rob Babcock sleep at night?

He sleeps on his comfortable money stuffed pillows of course.

I'm just glad that era in Raptor history is just that...history.
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Old 08-04-2008, 06:19 PM   #21
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Default Re: Hoffa wasn't really that bad if you think about it

Babcock wasn't as bad as everyone else says he was. Araujo wasn't his pick, it was jack mccloskey's pick (Babcock had been a GM for 3 months, you really think he had time to pick and choose his guy for the draft). The VC trade that everyone else says was such a disaster, in the end, benefited us with JO now. How?

That 16th pick was very crucial. If we hadn't acquired that 16th pick, we couldn't have picked Villanueva with our 7th pick (meaning we couldn't have landed Ford). The reason we picked Villanueva was because we had an extra pick that we could use for the SF (and it was between Granger, Green and Graham). Granger is the best out of the bunch but it was his knee problems that forced teams to back out from picking him higher than he was and Babcock wasn't gonna take a chance. Green hasn't done anything and neither has Graham.

Also, acquiring Eric Williams which was an expirer next year, we packaged it for Rasho.

Colangelo stepped in and sped up the process (and it could fall flat in our faces if his moves don't work out), but Babcock's vision was different. He wanted to build a winner for the long term and slowly. He now works with Minnesota, and well, I am pretty sure they are getting a lot of input from Babcock. And it's slowly becoming a pretty solid team.

While on face value, it doesn't look good, you have to be fair with Babcock, he wasn't given the opportunity to see his vision through. He worked with us for what, like a year only? And in that, he had his best player not playing his hardest, and the second best offer was an expirer in SAR, meh. He wasn't given a lot to work with, Colagelo was...
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Old 08-04-2008, 06:41 PM   #22
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Default Re: Hoffa wasn't really that bad if you think about it

It's easy to go through all the outcomes that came from moves years ago. It doesn't mean Babcock was good at all. The VC deal was still terrible no matter how you slice it. I agree that the Hoffa pick wasn't all him, but he had a part for sure. The Graham pick was bad then and still bad now. You can't say Babcock had a part in getting JO because he got blitzed on the VC deal that then got us CVill at #7 so another GM could deal him for TJ and then deal TJ for JO blah blah blah. Babcock was still one of the worst GMs for his short tenure the league has seen.

It's like Knicks fans saying in 3 years when Zach is expiring and they move him for a solid player that Isiah was good because he layed the groundwork for that deal.

Last edited by RapsFan : 08-04-2008 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 08-04-2008, 09:48 PM   #23
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Default Re: Hoffa wasn't really that bad if you think about it

All I care about is Babcock laid a pretty good clean slate for Colangelo to come in and do his thing. Now he probably did it by accident but it could have been much worse. At least we weren't sunk into any big contracts from his era.

He did make the mistake of trading Carter when he did but by all accounts, things weren't looking like Vince was gonna up his 16 ppg. As brwnman mentioned, the only other deal seemingly available at the time was SAR and Derek Anderson IIRC.

I don't think this situation is comparable to the IT era in NY. New York has years to go before they go back to respectability. Colangelo was able to do it in one offseason.
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Old 08-04-2008, 09:55 PM   #24
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Default Re: Hoffa wasn't really that bad if you think about it

Well the cap space wasn't Babcock. He didn't have the balls to make an obvious move and our interim GM actually pulled the trigger and fleeced NY to take on Jalen.
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:24 PM   #25
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Default Re: Hoffa wasn't really that bad if you think about it

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Originally Posted by RapsFan
Well the cap space wasn't Babcock. He didn't have the balls to make an obvious move and our interim GM actually pulled the trigger and fleeced NY to take on Jalen.

Actually, the reason Babcock didn't pull that off is because he had a bunch of guys coming off payroll when Jalen was (that means more capspace to sign a big FA). He had Eric Williams, Bonner, Jalen, Alonzo's too I believe and that's a good amount of change right there. Also, he wanted that draft pick, because he was trying to acquire as many young talents as he could. Like I said, I wanted to see Babcock's vision through, but I don't think he got a fair opportunity. I just think he never had as much to work with as Colangelo did. Colagelo's vision was also different, Brian came in and he wanted to make the playoffs right away, and that's what he went for. Babcock wanted young players to grow together and be an annual playoff team and compete for years. Raptors as it is now, is more year to year, I mean if JO goes down, we are done.

This is not to criticize Colangelo, because I think he has done a fantastic job of what he is trying to do and his goals. It's more of a risk, but a much greater reward and quicker. But we shouldn't just dismiss Babcock. He also drafted Roko Ukic. But what I don't get is, why is Uros Slokar not in the league? I thought he could've been a pretty solid off the bench big guy. He was pretty polished offensively. Had a shot, some post game, very good foot work, but just never got the opportunity...
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Old 08-05-2008, 01:39 AM   #26
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Default Re: Hoffa wasn't really that bad if you think about it

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Originally Posted by b4ball
I think their is always room for an enforcer, one who knows his job, and frankly, would the Raps have been known as a soft team if we had Hoffa on the bench for those, ah, special fouls?...lol

There's always room for a big body, but not the brainless no-athleticism type. It's not hockey. If every single team in the league had a Dwight Howard or a Tim Duncan to contend with, then I could see some limited use for a Hoffa to come in and hack away to soak up some fouls. Such isn't the case, which is why we've really started to see the extinction of the slow, lumbering, unathletic stiff of a center.

Even a pile of salty garbage with stumps for hands like Kwame Brown will always have a contract in the NBA over a Hoffaesque type, because he's at least got the bare minimum of athleticism needed to change a shot here and there.
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