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Old 09-02-2006, 09:58 AM   #1
Skywalker
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Default ISH Debate Tourney- Round 1: JtotheIzzo vs. Twiens

These two are debating whether or not putting in a salary cap has done what they intended it to do and created parity in the NBA.

Side debating it has succeeded
The salary cap was implemented 1984 to help maintain a competitive balance in the NBA, so the deep pocketed team were on the same playing field as the small market squads. This cap has been very successful in achieving its goals and the success of small market franchises is one key indicator of its overwhelming success.

Small markets such as Portland, Utah, San Antonio, and Indiana have all seen great success during this time because they have been able to afford keep their star players due to the 'soft cap' exemption of the NBA salary cap which allows teams exceed the cap in order to keep franchise players.

The two most popular sports leagues in the US (NFL, NBA) both have salary caps and a third (NHL) has recently implemented one to retain its former greatness and save its league from imploding. It is no coincidence that during this time both the NFL and NBA have soared in popularity.

The salary cap just makes good sense for the league as a whole, where teams from all corners of the league have a chance to win if they are properly managed. Unlike baseball (which has no cap) basketball success can often be guaged by organizational skills as oppose to fat wallets. Perpetual big spending elites like the New York Yankees don't exist in basketball and the league has been a leading example of parity because the cap allows smaller markets the same weapons when going to war after top free agents.

The evidence bears this out: For the 2001-02 NBA season, the correlation between team payroll and regular season wins was about 0.13. In other words, there is nearly no correlation between salary and wins. By comparison, MLB (with no salary cap) had a much stronger correlation of 0.43 for its 2002 season.

The cap is also a way to ensure the players as a whole receive their rightful earnings as the league books are wide open and a specific agreed to percentage of league earnings goes to salaries each year.

Fair player remuneration
Competitive league balance
Franchise stability
Players representing communities as oppose to hired guns

Without the cap basketball might have looked something like English soccer, with ads placed on the jerseys and the same three teams perpetually vying for the title.


Side debating it hasn't succeded
The league has not been successful in creating parity by using a salary cap. It has been great for some franchises, crippled others, and just been completely useless to teams that arenít as popular with free-agents around the NBA.

Winning and Money are the two most important factors when it comes to free-agency. Extra money from being under the salary cap can only help a team so much. Unless you draft well, youíre basically screwed. Their are exceptions: Shaq signing with the Lakers, Nash signing with the Suns, etc.. But most of the time, teams are left over-paying for roleplayers, washed-up stars, and raw bigmen as the stars re-sign with their original teams for more money. For Example, the Knicks signing Jerome James to a huge deal last offseason. When a team is that far over the cap, they have no choice so they keep on spending and put themselves in an even deeper hole.

Winning is probably even more important than money when it comes to signing free-agents. The Spurs, Lakers, Heat and other teams have all gotten players for less than market value in recent years because of their success the past few seasons. When you have the reputation of being a winner, players will do anything to go there for their chance at the championship. The Atlanta Hawks went out and gave Joe Johnson a huge contract last summer. Heís a good player, but he really didnít help much in the win column.

The salary cap isnít that important, the owners are. As long as the owner doesnít have a problem with paying the luxury tax, that will be a successful franchise. Yes there are times where this theory is wrong,(Knicks) but almost all of the greatest franchises have shown a willingness to spend money. Look at the Clippers. For years they have been cheap and let their players walk, because of this they were a joke of a franchise. Now that they have finally found someone willing to spend money on the team, the Clipper are a great team and it looks like they will be that way for years.

How can there be parity in a league if one team has 42 (yes, 42) more wins than another?
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Old 09-02-2006, 12:46 PM   #2
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Quote:
The salary cap was implemented 1984 to help maintain a competitive balance in the NBA, so the deep pocketed team were on the same playing field as the small market squads. This cap has been very successful in achieving its goals and the success of small market franchises is one key indicator of its overwhelming success.

It doesn't really matter what "market" the team is in, all that matters is the owner. If you have an owner willing to throw money around, you will most likely have a successful team.

Quote:
Small markets such as Portland, Utah, San Antonio, and Indiana have all seen great success during this time because they have been able to afford keep their star players due to the 'soft cap' exemption of the NBA salary cap which allows teams exceed the cap in order to keep franchise players.

Again, that's all because of great drafting. The Jazz drafted Stockton and Malone. Spurs drafted Tim Duncan and David Robinson. Pacers drafted Reggie. This really has little to do with the salary cap, and more to do with good scouting. 90% of the time you can't build a team through free-agency. Most championship teams are built over time through the draft.


Quote:
The salary cap just makes good sense for the league as a whole, where teams from all corners of the league have a chance to win if they are properly managed. Unlike baseball (which has no cap) basketball success can often be guaged by organizational skills as oppose to fat wallets. Perpetual big spending elites like the New York Yankees don't exist in basketball and the league has been a leading example of parity because the cap allows smaller markets the same weapons when going to war after top free agents.

Actually, the highest payroll in the league(Knicks) is approximately $110 million more than that of the Charlotte Bobcats. If you're going to use a salary cap, then you have to use a hard cap to limit constant spending by teams with rich owners.(Dallas, NewYork, Philly, LA, etc.) Luxury tax is worthless when it comes to these teams. The only way that makes a difference is with owners who care more about their profits than team success.
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Old 09-03-2006, 02:25 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweins

Side debating it hasn't succeded
The league has not been successful in creating parity by using a salary cap. It has been great for some franchises, crippled others, and just been completely useless to teams that arenít as popular with free-agents around the NBA.

-the salary has in no way crippled franchises, that is just complete wrong.
-by unpopular, I assume you mean poorly managed and smaller market teams. Your statement that it has been completely useless for them is again, completely wrong. Take this year and last year; free agent traffic centers around the teams who have 'cap room', not major markets. I can't believe you would say that.
in 2005 the Bucks (small market, not much recent success) resigned Michael Redd,and picked up Bobby Simmons, two highly coveted free agents who surely would have signed to the highest bidder (just look at Milwaukee's efforts in baseball to sign top talent if you think the Bucks would have been able to keep them if hoops had a baseball model for free agency) and the highest bidder certainly wouldn't have been the Bucks...the salary cap lets them keep the pieces to build their team (Redd) and if they manage their money wisely the opportunity to add pieces (Simmons) thus ensuing...LEAGUE PARITY.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweins
Winning and Money are the two most important factors when it comes to free-agency. Extra money from being under the salary cap can only help a team so much. Unless you draft well, youíre basically screwed.

of course, it is a competition, there will be winners and losers, people who are better than others, and teams who draft well deserve to have better teams, 'may the best man win' is the mantra of competition, and the salary caps helps maintain that as oppose to 'may the richest man have the most weapons'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweins
Their are exceptions: Shaq signing with the Lakers, Nash signing with the Suns, etc.. But most of the time, teams are left over-paying for roleplayers, washed-up stars, and raw bigmen as the stars re-sign with their original teams for more money. For Example, the Knicks signing Jerome James to a huge deal last offseason. When a team is that far over the cap, they have no choice so they keep on spending and put themselves in an even deeper hole.
the salary cap is to make an even playing field (punishing the teams who dont abide by it) not to guide teams away from bad decisions. People will make dumb mistakes in competition, business and management, it is human nature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweins
Winning is probably even more important than money when it comes to signing free-agents. The Spurs, Lakers, Heat and other teams have all gotten players for less than market value in recent years because of their success the past few seasons. When you have the reputation of being a winner, players will do anything to go there for their chance at the championship.
of course....why would you think this is a bad thing? COMPETITION and WINNING is the goal of everyone in the league, if you run your team well, you reap the benifits...end of story, rewards for being better.

You mention the Spurs, they are an example of a small market team, who under the cap, made all the right moves and now they can reap the benifits and steal top free agents away from bigger pay checks for a chance to be involved in their organization...the true beauty of a level palying field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweins
The Atlanta Hawks went out and gave Joe Johnson a huge contract last summer. Heís a good player, but he really didnít help much in the win column.
it is called rebuilding, it takes time
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweins
The salary cap isnít that important, the owners are. As long as the owner doesnít have a problem with paying the luxury tax, that will be a successful franchise.
False!!! just ask Paul Allen or Mark Cuban how long they are willing to throw money to their competition...not very long
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweins
Yes there are times where this theory is wrong,(Knicks) but almost all of the greatest franchises have shown a willingness to spend money. Look at the Clippers. For years they have been cheap and let their players walk, because of this they were a joke of a franchise. Now that they have finally found someone willing to spend money on the team, the Clipper are a great team and it looks like they will be that way for years.
better management, and under the cap principles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweins
How can there be parity in a league if one team has 42 (yes, 42) more wins than another?
because that team is better staffed, better run and has better players, and that is what happens in a competition. there will be winners and losers, but as long as the playing field is level (with respect to aquisitions) everyone has a chance.
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Old 09-03-2006, 02:50 AM   #4
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False!!! just ask Paul Allen or Mark Cuban how long they are willing to throw money to their competition...not very long

Has that stopped them? No. A little Luxury tax isn't going to stop Mark Cuban from spending money. You have to spend money to make money.

Quote:
-the salary has in no way crippled franchises, that is just complete wrong.

False, take a look at the NewYork Knicks. OF couse the salary cap has crippled their franchise(along with stupid GMs). If it weren't for the cap, they could keep spending and eventually they would field a good team. Explain to me again how the cap doesn't hurt them?

Quote:
-by unpopular, I assume you mean poorly managed and smaller market teams.

Yea, I mean teams like the Utah Jazz, Toronto Raptors etc.. These teams have problems getting players for various reasons. Many players dont want to go to Utah for obvious reasons, and many have not reported to the Raptors because they didn't want to play in Canada.

Quote:
in 2005 the Bucks (small market, not much recent success) resigned Michael Redd,and picked up Bobby Simmons, two highly coveted free agents who surely would have signed to the highest bidder (just look at Milwaukee's efforts in baseball to sign top talent if you think the Bucks would have been able to keep them if hoops had a baseball model for free agency) and the highest bidder certainly wouldn't have been the Bucks...the salary cap lets them keep the pieces to build their team (Redd) and if they manage their money wisely the opportunity to add pieces (Simmons) thus ensuing...LEAGUE PARITY.

Again, that has more with drafting than anything. The Bucks saw something in Michael Redd when noone else did, and now he feels loyal to them so he signed the contract. Who else even made him an offer? Cleveland is the only one I remember. Of couse he'd rather be the star in Milwaukee than play in Lebrons shadow in Cleveland. And about Simmons, of course teams will sign a good player every few years. If you have money you'll get players. Dont act like signing Bobby Simmons is a big deal, hes nothing more than an average role-player. Maybe he would have signed there even if there wasn't a salary cap. How do you know he might just like the city, players, coaches, etc..


Quote:
You mention the Spurs, they are an example of a small market team, who under the cap, made all the right moves and now they can reap the benifits and steal top free agents away from bigger pay checks for a chance to be involved in their organization...the true beauty of a level palying field.

Who are these's top free-agents the Spurs have signed with all of their cap-space? They drafted David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobili. There entire core has been built through the draft. Bruce Bowen signed for dirt cheap. You consider old man Mike Finley a top free-agent or something?

Quote:
because that team is better staffed, better run and has better players, and that is what happens in a competition. there will be winners and losers, but as long as the playing field is level (with respect to aquisitions) everyone has a chance.

Parity means for two things to be equal. If one team is 42 games better than another, then they are not equal. The league has not gotten any closer from top to bottom.
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Old 09-03-2006, 02:52 AM   #5
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By the way, I might not be able to get on tomorrow because of a wedding. Ill try to get on in the morning, but if not then Ill be back on Monday morning.
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Old 09-03-2006, 09:35 AM   #6
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Live debating over, closing statements by Monday night at 8pm eastern time please
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Old 09-04-2006, 01:20 PM   #7
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The Salary cap can only help so much. In the end, it all comes down to how you run your team. If you don't draft well, you'll never have a successful franchise. I already gave you examples of this in my debate above. The present San Antonio Spurs, the champion Bulls, almost-champion Jazz and most other successful teams all built there team through the draft, not free-agency.

Maybe someday there will be parity through the league, but that is not the case right now. Back in the 83-84 season, that final season before the salary cap was implemented, the difference between the 1st and last place teams was 36 games. Last year the difference was 42 games. How has the league gotten any closer if the difference from top-to-bottom is even larger than it was before the salary cap. This data alone proves that the league has not been successful in creating parity by using a salary cap.
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Old 09-05-2006, 04:29 AM   #8
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In competition, there will be winners and losers; some will do a much better job than others, and the NBA is no exception. You cannot implement a rule to keep all teams at a 41-41 record. What my opponent is demanding of the salary cap (through his rigid view of parity) is unrealistic and goes against all principles of competition. The only way that could come is if we picked new teams every year (hardly a viable option).

What the cap has given us (and I have stressed this above) is the chance for the 'poorer' teams in the league, if they manage their team properly, to be a top team. My opponent even alludes to this in his closing argument further cementing my point. Not only does it give them a chance to have one good year, but with the soft cap and "Lary Bird Rule" it allows them to build on their successes as oppose to having their top talent shipped off to LA or NY.

The cap has been a huge success, and in a league where the focus is so much on the individual, and the strong desire for players to swarm like moths to the brightest big city lights, it is absolutely necessary to ensure that NBA fans in the 'nether-regions' of the league get to see the stars their teams nurtured suit up for their hometown squad through a majority if not all of their career.

Without the cap chaos would ensue and interest in about half the NBA cities would wane because they would have no chance to ever succeed (they just couldn't afford it). Yes some teams are bad today, but it is through poor management, not poverty or an unbalanced system...this my friends is as much parity as you can allow in any competition without just playing for fun.
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